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> UKIP: racists?
GMR
post Mar 5 2015, 05:44 PM
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On another thread, Motormouth said, "If I WERE to Vote, I'd vote UKIP.Not because I'm a racist prick but ..." etc

Why do people accuse UKIP of being racist because they want control over who comes here, when I would say that the EU is actually racist. UKIP's policies want those that will work, from all over the world, not just the EU (which will include the Good, Bad and the Ugly).

Before anybody says it, I know it is down to individual countries who decide who comes into their country, however, with the pressure from the people of those countries (to their governments) about the flood of immigrants their only options would be to stop those from outside the EU. This would include African, Asia, Americas, and Australia. The EU is basically white and only about 4% are black (I read those figures a few years ago). Therefore, the combined policy of outside immigration could curtail Black or Asians from coming into the EU. I would say this was racist and wrong. UKIPs policy concerning immigration/ compared to EU's creates more diversity and racial/ ethnicity than the EU's policy (or individual countries) have. EU's eventual - combined - policies over immigration could dilute certain ethnicities from the EU.




Thoughts.




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HeatherW
post Mar 5 2015, 07:10 PM
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Wasn't it David Cameron or some Tory that called UKIP gadflies and racists or something like that? From there it took off. I personally think we should have control over our borders and only allow those in that can work and who we need. No matter where from.

What is a fact is that UKIP have opened up the debate on immigration. Before that the mentality was what Gordon Brown created by calling that woman a bigot. Discuss such subjects and you are a racist and a bigot. UKIP won't win, but with any luck (along with the SNP & the Greens) will shake things up.
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JaneGibbs
post Mar 5 2015, 07:26 PM
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Good points have been made here, but I have my suspicions that all parties have their racist agenda. I am for the EU, but as separate countries working together, not being controlled by a central point (which looks like it is happening at the moment).
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GMR
post Mar 5 2015, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (JaneGibbs @ Mar 5 2015, 07:26 PM) *
Good points have been made here, but I have my suspicions that all parties have their racist agenda. I am for the EU, but as separate countries working together, not being controlled by a central point (which looks like it is happening at the moment).





Of course, there are racist in all parties. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. What is the point is what do the parties stand for etc? UKIP are a fairly new party and have made a lot of mistakes. But what they are doing, when the ugly bigots pop their heads above the parapet, they are removed. The media always point out their mistakes (and rightly so) but seem to ignore other parties big mistakes. Did anybody read about the Lib-Dem who was being racist? Or the one who abused women?

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Simon Kirby
post Mar 5 2015, 08:08 PM
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You're playing semantics GMR. You can argue that UKIP isn't itself racist, it just attracts racists, but that supposes that UKIP exists independently from its membership, and of course it doesn't. It's plausible to think of a party in terms of its manifesto, but what actually matters is what the party supporters think and how they behave.



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GMR
post Mar 5 2015, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 5 2015, 08:08 PM) *
You're playing semantics GMR. You can argue that UKIP isn't itself racist, it just attracts racists, but that supposes that UKIP exists independently from its membership, and of course it doesn't. It's plausible to think of a party in terms of its manifesto, but what actually matters is what the party supporters think and how they behave.


You can't control what people think and say. Your arguments could be used against the other parties as well. There are many people within all the parties that have unacceptable views. Parties don't support them. And what party supporters are you referring to? The minority that are bigoted or the majority that are not. I have never met any bigoted UKIP members (that is not saying there isn't any), but I have met plenty of Tories, Lib-Dems that are bigoted/ racist. The UKIP members I have met are not bad. So what ones are you talking about? Those that the press try to find out and expose or the ones that they don't (as they don't have any news worthiness)?

Every time you see a documentary on UKIP they focus on the kooky members (and all parties have them). They never focus on those that are bright and intelligent; young and old, male and female and those of an ethnic background.

The Tories and Labour have both attracted racist people.

I am not playing semantics at all. I think you are blinded by the propaganda of the press.

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On the edge
post Mar 5 2015, 08:42 PM
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It's not really surprising, their policies are right wing and just as the Tories have often been labeled racist, UKIP is likely to attract the same jibes. It's the same as the left being regarded as communist. Equally, and I appreciate the spot light will be picking on all imperfections, the comments of some of their more zealous supporters don't help. Again, an issue all the other parties have. The answer? Live with it, but prove it wrong.


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Simon Kirby
post Mar 5 2015, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Mar 5 2015, 08:18 PM) *
You can't control what people think and say. Your arguments could be used against the other parties as well. There are many people within all the parties that have unacceptable views. Parties don't support them. And what party supporters are you referring to? The minority that are bigoted or the majority that are not. I have never met any bigoted UKIP members (that is not saying there isn't any), but I have met plenty of Tories, Lib-Dems that are bigoted/ racist. The UKIP members I have met are not bad. So what ones are you talking about? Those that the press try to find out and expose or the ones that they don't (as they don't have any news worthiness)?

Every time you see a documentary on UKIP they focus on the kooky members (and all parties have them). They never focus on those that are bright and intelligent; young and old, male and female and those of an ethnic background.

The Tories and Labour have both attracted racist people.

I am not playing semantics at all. I think you are blinded by the propaganda of the press.

But I'm not calling UKIP racist, that's your preoccupation.


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Andy Capp
post Mar 5 2015, 08:49 PM
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I think UKIP provides an environment for soft racists, like the Tory party, but UKIP exist for more reasons than just issues of racial harmony and immigration.
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Andy1
post Mar 6 2015, 02:11 PM
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UKIP are making people think about their vote, whether it be changing their usual choice or even making one at all. Regardless of what you think of them, this can only be a good thing surely.
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GMR
post Mar 6 2015, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 5 2015, 08:45 PM) *
But I'm not calling UKIP racist, that's your preoccupation.





Actually I didn't call UKIP racist, I questioned why they were called racist by some. You then tried to link or suggest that UKIP are their members, and I asked which members where you referring to or suggesting? All parties are made up of members with different thoughts, but not necessarily accepted by the body has a whole.

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GMR
post Mar 6 2015, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Mar 5 2015, 08:49 PM) *
I think UKIP provides an environment for soft racists, like the Tory party, but UKIP exist for more reasons than just issues of racial harmony and immigration.





I think Labour and the Lib-Dems can be put into that group as well.

My other point, which nobody commented on, was that the EU (as a collective group) where the ones who were actual racist.

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GMR
post Mar 6 2015, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (Andy1 @ Mar 6 2015, 02:11 PM) *
UKIP are making people think about their vote, whether it be changing their usual choice or even making one at all. Regardless of what you think of them, this can only be a good thing surely.





Exactly. We have a choice at the next election; keep the status quo or move to something different. Keeping the status quo then nothing will change.

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On the edge
post Mar 6 2015, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Mar 6 2015, 04:30 PM) *
Exactly. We have a choice at the next election; keep the status quo or move to something different. Keeping the status quo then nothing will change.


Just be careful we don't just get a different staus quo. What's on offer from today's trio and UKIP is really just four shades of grey.


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GMR
post Mar 6 2015, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Mar 6 2015, 05:30 PM) *
Just be careful we don't just get a different staus quo. What's on offer from today's trio and UKIP is really just four shades of grey.





Is it? How do you know?

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HeatherW
post Mar 6 2015, 07:39 PM
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Reading the main topic I never thought of that, that the EU member countries are or becoming racist by what they will allow or won't allow into their country. I would rather have a mixture of the best than allow any old dog in to this country. We seem to be disintegrating in front of us. I am for immigration, providing the work is there and we have room. All immigration affects our services.
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Spider
post Mar 6 2015, 07:50 PM
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We will never know what people are thinking but I am sure that they all have their prejudices. The only thing we can go on is what the parties say, believe and how they act. We also can see how their members act and how their parties react to their indiscretions. What I do know and what I've read is that if anybody from UKIP says anything derogatory they are bounced on and removed quickly. That must say something of their thinking? I am still not sure how I will vote at the moment, but one thing is for sure, and being an ex-Lib-Dem, it won't be for that party.
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Mr Brown
post Mar 6 2015, 08:04 PM
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I think the racism bit is present at certain levels all parties. Let's face it, round here a fair number of people don't appreciate incomers from anywhere. You know, the local houses for local people debate.
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Andy Capp
post Mar 6 2015, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Mar 6 2015, 08:04 PM) *
I think the racism bit is present at certain levels all parties. Let's face it, round here a fair number of people don't appreciate incomers from anywhere. You know, the local houses for local people debate.

That is a conditional issue. No-one minds incomers, it is the volume that is more of a concern. The local houses for local people is simply a recognition that there is a housing need for people trying to live here.
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GMR
post Mar 6 2015, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Mar 6 2015, 08:04 PM) *
I think the racism bit is present at certain levels all parties. Let's face it, round here a fair number of people don't appreciate incomers from anywhere. You know, the local houses for local people debate.


Exactly and spot on.

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