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> Europe - In or Out, Straw Poll for Forumisters
Turin Machine
post Jun 15 2016, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Jun 15 2016, 02:01 PM) *
Like! 👍

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Andy Capp
post Jun 15 2016, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jun 15 2016, 03:59 PM) *
Being old and uneducated I will also admit to being temped. Harmonisation of business and employment legislation based on the German model in particular would suit me very well. But hold on, this is just the legislation our clever peers go off and get exemptions from. Of course, with age you get experience and I actually voted in the last lot and well remember what our beloved leader Mr Heath, the man who'd taken us in (more ways than one) had told us. I think the words I'm looking for to describe what was said are something like lies and half truths. in this case hindsight definitely is twenty twenty and so it remains an OUT for me. Once bitten twice shy.

Do you think leaving will improve on things over staying in? By leaving we will be left to the mercy of the very people we have criticised. We are voting for a decision, not a set of leaders.
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x2lls
post Jun 15 2016, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 15 2016, 05:17 PM) *
Do you think leaving will improve on things over staying in? By leaving we will be left to the mercy of the very people we have criticised. We are voting for a decision, not a set of leaders.



Exactly, we are not voting for the future leaders, in fact, we didn't vote them in the first place.


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Turin Machine
post Jun 15 2016, 04:55 PM
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Out! We will make mistakes, of course. But they will be our mistakes, not mistakes made in another country then foisted on us. Its a brave new world out there, time for the UK to shine.


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On the edge
post Jun 15 2016, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 15 2016, 05:17 PM) *
Do you think leaving will improve on things over staying in? By leaving we will be left to the mercy of the very people we have criticised. We are voting for a decision, not a set of leaders.


Quite right, the old guard will remain, until the next General Election, then we'll have the chance to properly put things right. It's going to take two years minimum to exit so the two things are likely to be coincident.

An out vote is likely to re energise UK politics anyway. Cameron has already said his stay in office is limited. No matter how bad the Tories are, the alternative is just as unpalatable to some. So I don't think the decision should be influenced by concerns about the present party incumbents.



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x2lls
post Jun 15 2016, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jun 15 2016, 06:31 PM) *
Quite right, the old guard will remain, until the next General Election, then we'll have the chance to properly put things right. It's going to take two years minimum to exit so the two things are likely to be coincident.

An out vote is likely to re energise UK politics anyway. Cameron has already said his stay in office is limited. No matter how bad the Tories are, the alternative is just as unpalatable to some. So I don't think the decision should be influenced by concerns about the present party incumbents.


What is that?


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x2lls
post Jun 15 2016, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Jun 15 2016, 05:55 PM) *
Out! We will make mistakes, of course. But they will be our mistakes, not mistakes made in another country then foisted on us. Its a brave new world out there, time for the UK to shine.



The only mistake we will make is if we vote(and it is honored) to remain.






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Simon Kirby
post Jun 15 2016, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Jun 15 2016, 05:55 PM) *
Out! We will make mistakes, of course. But they will be our mistakes, not mistakes made in another country then foisted on us. Its a brave new world out there, time for the UK to shine.

And I kind of agree with the principle, but can you say clearly what EU legislation you want to get rid of and what domestic legislation you want to introduce that our membership of the EU is presently preventing?

Leaving the EU would allow the repeal of the Human Rights Act, but other than some tweaking to Article 8 I'd be fearful of any tinkering - would you want to remove the right to freedom of expression or freedom of association? How about the right to a fair trial and the right not to receive cruel and unusual punishment? Would you reintroduce the death penalty, and for what?

With a UK untied from the legislation that levels the playing field would you now repeal the working time directive that provides a modicum of protection for an employee's work-life balance? Would you repeal the management of health and safety at work regulations and all that raft of health and safety legislation that is so unpopular with industrialists but which has brought down the rate of industrial disease and accidents at work and created a generation of workers who for the first time can think of retiring in good health as a right and not a privilege? Would you repeal the animal welfare legislation that makes the miserable life of farmed meat barely tolerable but which the farming industry would gladly abandon in its race to the bottom to satisfy the needs of the value-brand gourmand. How about the environmental protection legislation that has cleaned the land, rivers, and air and so frustrates industrialists.


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On the edge
post Jun 15 2016, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Jun 15 2016, 06:44 PM) *
What is that?


The Labour Party seems just as unpopular in some segments of society; that's the only real alternative.


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On the edge
post Jun 15 2016, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Jun 15 2016, 05:55 PM) *
Out! We will make mistakes, of course. But they will be our mistakes, not mistakes made in another country then foisted on us. Its a brave new world out there, time for the UK to shine.


I'd suggest that for stage 1, all of the existing regulation would remain. There is precedent for this; when we joined, we simply accepted what was already there. Once it's decreed, EU law is implemented by enshrining it into English law, so it works in exactly same way. Thus on day one, we'd still be working to that until such time as the English legislature changed it. It's that last bit which becomes so much easier.

However, I'm not over worried as I don't think the extreme views would prevail. For instance, David C hasn't managed a UK 'Human Rights Act' mainly because the EU one actually works; it's the interpretation that's the issue and that's always been down to us!


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x2lls
post Jun 15 2016, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jun 15 2016, 07:15 PM) *
The Labour Party seems just as unpopular in some segments of society; that's the only real alternative.



You are making the assumption another party is not possible. Give UKIP a chance. After all, you can vote them out if they fail.


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HJD
post Jun 15 2016, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Jun 15 2016, 03:55 PM) *
+1


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user23
post Jun 15 2016, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Jun 15 2016, 08:03 PM) *
You are making the assumption another party is not possible. Give UKIP a chance. After all, you can vote them out if they fail.
There will be no need for UKIP after the referendum.

We'll be out of the EU so they can disband, or we'll still be in and not to disband would be disregarding the views of the British people.

Either way, they've haven't represented the British people in the EU Parliament well, so have failed already.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jun 15 2016, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jun 15 2016, 08:17 PM) *
There will be no need for UKIP after the referendum.

We'll be out of the EU so they can disband, or we'll still be in and not to disband would be disregarding the views of the British people.

Either way, they've haven't represented the British people in the EU Parliament well, so have failed already.


We may vote out and bring about an overdue reform of the EU. Then actually remain! I don't think France and Germany, for all the posturing and threats would actually want us out. They may even change just for once to accommodate a different viewpoint. Not saying it will happen but I'd give it a 50% chance...
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user23
post Jun 15 2016, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 15 2016, 09:25 PM) *
We may vote out and bring about an overdue reform of the EU. Then actually remain! I don't think France and Germany, for all the posturing and threats would actually want us out. They may even change just for once to accommodate a different viewpoint. Not saying it will happen but I'd give it a 50% chance...
Surely if we vote out, we're out even if there's reform of the EU?

Wouldn't we need another referendum to change "our" mind and stay in?
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Andy Capp
post Jun 15 2016, 09:17 PM
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I saw this on Facebook which I found amusing:

"A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• The former Education Secretary that every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.

And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.

Please repost this list, if you think it might help."
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je suis Charlie
post Jun 15 2016, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jun 15 2016, 08:17 PM) *
There will be no need for UKIP after the referendum.

We'll be out of the EU so they can disband, or we'll still be in and not to disband would be disregarding the views of the British people.

Either way, they've haven't represented the British people in the EU Parliament well, so have failed already.

Nooo! Who will be left to buy the Daily Mail!
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On the edge
post Jun 15 2016, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Jun 15 2016, 08:03 PM) *
You are making the assumption another party is not possible. Give UKIP a chance. After all, you can vote them out if they fail.


No, only following the original question which was essentially saying is out a reasonable proposition because it would leave us in the hands of the existing failed incumbents.

I think you may well be right, an out would certainly lead to a rise in UKIP's chances, particularly as the traditional Tories started their post referendum blood letting.

I'd also hazard we'd also see a real Labour Party fighting back, in doesn't sit comfortably with the new leader and his growing number of supporters.


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Turin Machine
post Jun 15 2016, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jun 15 2016, 07:13 PM) *
And I kind of agree with the principle, but can you say clearly what EU legislation you want to get rid of and what domestic legislation you want to introduce that our membership of the EU is presently preventing?

Leaving the EU would allow the repeal of the Human Rights Act, but other than some tweaking to Article 8 I'd be fearful of any tinkering - would you want to remove the right to freedom of expression or freedom of association? How about the right to a fair trial and the right not to receive cruel and unusual punishment? Would you reintroduce the death penalty, and for what?

With a UK untied from the legislation that levels the playing field would you now repeal the working time directive that provides a modicum of protection for an employee's work-life balance? Would you repeal the management of health and safety at work regulations and all that raft of health and safety legislation that is so unpopular with industrialists but which has brought down the rate of industrial disease and accidents at work and created a generation of workers who for the first time can think of retiring in good health as a right and not a privilege? Would you repeal the animal welfare legislation that makes the miserable life of farmed meat barely tolerable but which the farming industry would gladly abandon in its race to the bottom to satisfy the needs of the value-brand gourmand. How about the environmental protection legislation that has cleaned the land, rivers, and air and so frustrates industrialists.

Same tired old diatribe. Nothing to see (or read) here, now move along.


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Turin Machine
post Jun 15 2016, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 15 2016, 10:17 PM) *
I saw this on Facebook which I found amusing:

"A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• The former Education Secretary that every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.

And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.

Please repost this list, if you think it might help."

Good ole foolstool!


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