Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Richard Garvie Nov 12 2011, 09:56 AM

http://www.newburysound.co.uk/stabbings-in-newbury-i-11508.php

Anybody with a Knife should go to prison for a long time.

Posted by: GMR Nov 12 2011, 10:23 AM

There are some people who haven't got a knife and should go to prison for a long time.

Posted by: Richard Garvie Nov 12 2011, 10:35 AM

I'd agree. So, anyone know if the incident was caught on cctv? Surely there was a risk assessment about moving the rank and cctv to cover this kind of thing would have been implemented?

Posted by: Simon Kirby Nov 12 2011, 11:17 AM

What, even carpet fitters who forget their Stanley is in their back pocket when they stop off at the newsagents to buy a paper? Isn't it better to give the judiciary some scope for common sense?

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 12 2011, 11:19 AM

I would imagine RG meant 'without good reason'.

Posted by: NWNREADER Nov 12 2011, 11:30 AM

What has moving the taxi rank to do with the reported incident(s)?

If there is CCTV evidence I am sure the police will have access to it. No guarantee there will be evidence, unless something informed the operators where to have the cameras pointing.....

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 12 2011, 11:31 AM

It is alleged there is no CCTV coverage of the wharf rank, although this occurred by the Hogs of course.

Posted by: NWNREADER Nov 12 2011, 11:36 AM

Indeed.
There used to be a camera for the rank area, on a pole in the car park.... has it gone?

Posted by: Simon Kirby Nov 12 2011, 11:38 AM

Though that's not what he said. There is already a "good cause" defence to the CJA 1988 S.139 offence of having a blade in a public place, yet the courts have ruled that simply forgetting that you have the knife on you is not a valid reason and people have been convicted in these circumstances. However, the courts have a reasonable degree of discretion in sentencing so the carpet fitter with a stanley knife is likely to get off much more likely than the inner-city yoot with an 18" machete.

It has been argued that carrying a knife should carry a mandatory prison sentence and this would appear to be what RG is calling for. Can you clarify your position Richard?

Posted by: Richard Garvie Nov 12 2011, 11:59 AM

The thing is, anyone dressed up for a night out has no real grounds to carry a knife. I once got stopped in the street on the way home from work in Slough as they suspected I was carrying a knife, and I was. I have a supermarket box cutter as I was a night manager at the time. They asked me why I had one, I told them and I was allowed to go.

f someone is stopped in ewbury Town Centre at 10pm, with a knife in their pocket and thay have no reason for carrying it, they should be dealt with. The problem is, most of the "wannabe gangster" types carry knifes to flash around and act the big man. But all it takes is for a moment of madness, which is why there needs to be really tough action against those carrying knives and any other weapon.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Nov 12 2011, 12:24 PM

Yeah, sure, but what you said was:

and while I'd be happy for "wannabe gangsters" to be sent down "for a long time", it would be a gross injustice to penalise so severly someone who was innocently carrying a knife without a "good cause" defence, such as the carpet fitter. So while statements such as "Anybody with a knife should go to prison for a long time" appeal the the reactionary right Daily Hail reading voters, they do nothing to promote justice.

Posted by: user23 Nov 12 2011, 12:59 PM

Even a penknife or a Swiss Army Knife?

My Dad carries one all the time, should he go to prison for a long time?

Posted by: Simon Kirby Nov 12 2011, 01:27 PM

Parts of Wash Common are plagued by knife-wielding paramilitaries, it's so bad in places that Trading Standards are having to police exclusion zones. If they're caught I hope they go to prison for a long, long time.

Posted by: user23 Nov 12 2011, 01:35 PM

I think Richard's statement was somewhat of a knee-jerk over reaction.

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 12 2011, 01:41 PM

Set against a background of recent stabbing in Newbury, and a general acceptance that knife crime is a big problem, I find both of your views regards Richard Garvie's clumsily constructed comment, to be wholly silly.

Posted by: Richard Garvie Nov 12 2011, 03:05 PM

Do scouts walk the streets with knives? Do carpet fitters head out on a night out with a knife in their pocket? Does your dad carry a knife when he goes out for a meal? Why anyone needs to carry a knife on their person in public is beyond me anyway, unless it's between walking from a car and a place of work or the like, why would you need one?

Posted by: NWNREADER Nov 12 2011, 03:22 PM

Defence lawyers have earned fortunes arguing those very cases over the years....... Usually the suspect needs to demonstrate some 'extra' attitude, or be in the midst of some problem for a police officer to arrest when the person has a fair reason for the possession.
However, as soon as reason is applied to law, unreasonable people take advantage to avoid conviction....

Posted by: Ron Nov 12 2011, 03:31 PM

When I was a scout in the dim and distant pass I used to carry a knife in a sheath on my belt. Today I went shopping straight from the garden and, as is quite often the case, I had a prunning knife in my pocket.

Posted by: Richard Garvie Nov 12 2011, 03:31 PM

I just think if there was a possession law, even if it was certain knives covered, people would not carry them. I don't believe most offenders head out with the intention to stab someone, it happens in the heat of the moment and they have the knife on them. No knife = no stabbing.

I can see the logic, but it's the same logic the americans use for guns. If the US introduced our gun laws, gun crime in the states would drop dramatically.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Nov 12 2011, 03:36 PM

So an innocent man takes advantage of the system by asserting his right to a fair trial? How is it possible to take advantage of the law?

Posted by: NWNREADER Nov 12 2011, 03:39 PM

Your innocence and naivety is touching.

Posted by: NWNREADER Nov 12 2011, 03:45 PM

You can be 99.9% certain that such an occurrence would not put you in front of The Beak, unless you involve in some disturbance and draw attention to yourself..... Or some like activity.

However, what about the man who goes looking for trouble and organises his defence in advance by doing a bit of gardening so he has a 'good reason' for having the blade if El Plod waylay him on route to do the deed with said knife?

Preventative law is designed to provide powers and sanction to reduce the chances of a more serious offence taking place. Better to deal with possession of a knife than a stabbing?

Posted by: xjay1337 Nov 12 2011, 03:54 PM

At least their injuries were minor at this point.

There's no reason to carry guns. People say they carry them for protection but apparently in a large percentage of stabbings, the victim is the one who has the knife. Now either as the attacker or the victim it's human nature to use a weapon if you have one to hand.

Don't have one on you - simples.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Nov 12 2011, 03:57 PM

There is already a possession law. Criminal Justice Act 1988 Section 139 makes it a criminal offence to have with you in a public place any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding (non-locking) pocketknife with a blade less than 3" long, though it is a defence to show that you had a good reason or lawful authority to have the thing, such as for work.

However, Section 1 Prevention of Crime Act 1953 also creates an offence of carrying an offensive weapon so even having a small folding pocket knife, if used or threatened as an offensive weapon, is already a criminal offense.

Other than pandering to the moral panic, any further criminalisation of knives per se is just creating trouble because it catches myriad legitimate reasons for carrying - would you criminalise pint glasses and beer bottles, because they're more effective improvised weapons than a folding 3" penknife.

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 12 2011, 11:45 PM

The more I think about it, and the more I read Simon Kirby's argument, the more I agree with RG. Don't carry a knife; you don't need to and you know when you are.

Posted by: xjay1337 Nov 13 2011, 12:10 AM

I agree with RG as well. I never thought I would but by jingle, I do.

Posted by: blackdog Nov 13 2011, 10:03 AM

So what about carrying a screwdriver? Or a pen?

It seems that the stabbing in Wharf Street did not involve a knife...

For many years I carried a knife all the time - the blade was about 1 inch long, and it was on my key ring. From time to time it came in very useful. Airport security got it in the end - I was evidently about to use it to hijack a flight to Houston. My wife bought me a replacement, a beautiful little penknife with a inlaid stone handle -far too nice to suffer the battering it would get on my key ring - I really must get another Christmas cracker one.

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 13 2011, 10:10 AM

The issue is broader than the incident the other night. You don't need to carry a knife. A Stanley knife which is only an inch long can do as much damage as any other longer bladed knife. This is all about being unambiguous, but I sure if laws were to be drafted, there would be descriptions.

Posted by: blackdog Nov 13 2011, 10:20 AM

But a screwdriver can do as much or more damage than a Stanley knife. A pen can be a nasty stabbing weapon. It's not the knife that does the crime.

A small penknife or multi-tool is a useful thing to have in your pocket or bag; the current law makes sense.

Posted by: user23 Nov 13 2011, 11:49 AM

Would you, like Richard, advocate anyone carrying a Swiss Army Knife going to prison for a long time?

Posted by: spartacus Nov 13 2011, 04:27 PM

AND they openly display Woggles.... If they want to earn their Racial Awareness badges surely they could challenge back that the name of this leather band is an offensive symbol? I'm surprised this hasn't been picked up by the PC Brigade befor now and that all Woggle wearers haven't been threatened with going to prison for a long, long time.....



Agreed. In the hands of evil eastern European agents even the innocent umbrella can be a deadly weapon.

Did anyone notice just how many high-powered guns were openly on display today? Not just any old gun, but guns with KNIVES on the end!! The police did absolutely nothing about it....

Posted by: xjay1337 Nov 14 2011, 09:14 AM

Surely you could have put it in the stored luggage. Alternatively you could have returned it (to your car for example), unless it was a gun. They can't just go "right I'm having that"



Ah yes, the bic biro. Often referred to as one of the most deadly weapons..

Posted by: blackdog Nov 14 2011, 09:23 AM

But also very useful for an emergency tracheotomy.

Posted by: xjay1337 Nov 14 2011, 10:01 AM

So now you're condoning carrying a bic biro as a deadly weapon, but only in an attempt to save a life?

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 14 2011, 12:06 PM

In principle, yes, but not necessarily in practice.

Posted by: blackdog Nov 14 2011, 01:52 PM

I'd rather see it illegal to carry umbrellas - I've lost count of the number of times I've nearly lost an eye to one of those.

Posted by: xjay1337 Nov 14 2011, 02:26 PM

Not to mention been injected with a radioactive isotope.