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> Allotments on the One Show, Greenwich allotmenteers fight 200% rent hike
the bloke on the...
post Mar 29 2011, 07:55 PM
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the council could out-source all of the admin to a well-run allotment association. cost to tax-payer = zilch


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NWNREADER
post Mar 29 2011, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (the bloke on the street @ Mar 29 2011, 08:55 PM) *
the council could out-source all of the admin to a well-run allotment association. cost to tax-payer = zilch

I suspect, as the allotments are a required Council provision, they would have to retain a mechanism for oversight even if the overall admin might be contracted out.
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Simon Kirby
post Mar 30 2011, 09:33 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Mar 29 2011, 09:59 AM) *
From a neutral point of view (eg. not being on the town council) I can see how you can come to that suggestion. In replying to my question about the amount NTC spend on allotments, the answer was more in response to comments made here about the members and the council on these websites. All I would say is that the members no doubt put in lots of work and effort into running the town council, but sometimes you need to take a step back to move forwards. My criticism as such is that we subsidise allotments to the tune of £38,000 a year, yet somebody claims they could save us that money. In the age of the "Big Society", surely there is an obligation for the council to investigate it as you say?

However busy the councillors and council make themselves running the allotments, none of that effort need be at the public expense. Independent self-managed sites run themselves without any council involvement. None. No financial support, no oversight, nothing.

So the questions are: How to migrate Newbury's sites towards self-management, and is it the right thing to do?

The how is easy enough because it's a common enough thing that the process has been studied and best-practice published - see for example Gardeners in Charge from the Allotments Regeneration Initiative.

Newbury is currently at the dependence stage, and the road-map to self-management takes us through participation, delegation, semi-autonomy, and finally to autonomous self-management which is free from any state involvement.

In order to have the capacity and enthusiasm to migrate to autonomous self-management it's pretty much necessary to follow the road-map, and as each stage is stable with meaningful advantages for the allotmenteers it's only really helpful to think about how to get to the next stage. So: how to get to participation, and is it the right thing to do?

Participation:
  • There is a site representative and plotholders informally accept responsibility for minor maintenance works.
  • There might be a mechanism by which the plotholders or site representatives can be consulted on capital expenditure and repairs by the allotment authority.
  • There is no written devolved management agreement between the plotholders and the allotment authority.


So these are the specific changes that NTC need to make to get us to participation:
  • All sites encouraged to form a democratic site association independent of the Council.
  • Site associations encouraged to cut the grass on the common areas.
  • Allotment Stewards appointed by the site association.
  • NTC constitute a joint council/association consultative panel.

And the question about whether it's the right thing to do is easy: yes, or course it is. Even if it leads no further towards self-management, this kind of allotmenteer involvement is healthy and benign, but it builds participation and capacity to migrate further towards self-management. And after a reasonable period it would be natural to think about migrating a little further towards self-management, but only when participation was embedded and stable.


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panda
post Mar 30 2011, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 30 2011, 10:33 PM) *
However busy the councillors and council make themselves running the allotments, none of that effort need be at the public expense. Independent self-managed sites run themselves without any council involvement. None. No financial support, no oversight, nothing.

So the questions are: How to migrate Newbury's sites towards self-management, and is it the right thing to do?

The how is easy enough because it's a common enough thing that the process has been studied and best-practice published - see for example Gardeners in Charge from the Allotments Regeneration Initiative.

Newbury is currently at the dependence stage, and the road-map to self-management takes us through participation, delegation, semi-autonomy, and finally to autonomous self-management which is free from any state involvement.

In order to have the capacity and enthusiasm to migrate to autonomous self-management it's pretty much necessary to follow the road-map, and as each stage is stable with meaningful advantages for the allotmenteers it's only really helpful to think about how to get to the next stage. So: how to get to participation, and is it the right thing to do?

Participation:
  • There is a site representative and plotholders informally accept responsibility for minor maintenance works.
  • There might be a mechanism by which the plotholders or site representatives can be consulted on capital expenditure and repairs by the allotment authority.
  • There is no written devolved management agreement between the plotholders and the allotment authority.


So these are the specific changes that NTC need to make to get us to participation:
  • All sites encouraged to form a democratic site association independent of the Council.
  • Site associations encouraged to cut the grass on the common areas.
  • Allotment Stewards appointed by the site association.
  • NTC constitute a joint council/association consultative panel.

And the question about whether it's the right thing to do is easy: yes, or course it is. Even if it leads no further towards self-management, this kind of allotmenteer involvement is healthy and benign, but it builds participation and capacity to migrate further towards self-management. And after a reasonable period it would be natural to think about migrating a little further towards self-management, but only when participation was embedded and stable.

This is getting to be so boring
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Andy Capp
post Mar 30 2011, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (panda @ Mar 30 2011, 10:45 PM) *
This is getting to be so boring

Good, perhaps we won't have to put up with your bigoted brainless drivel any more?
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Richard Garvie
post Mar 31 2011, 06:51 AM
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QUOTE (panda @ Mar 30 2011, 09:45 PM) *
This is getting to be so boring


You keep changing your mind. One minute you say you are happy to look at it, the next you are saying it's boring. It is clear to all that you are only hear to take pot shots at Simon Kirby.
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admin
post Mar 31 2011, 03:41 PM
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We have deleted some posts on this site which we consider to potentially be defamatory. Admin would like to remind users of the forum that abusive or defamatory posts will not be tolerated and could be removed from the site. Please respect the forum rules, which can be found on this website.
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Andy Capp
post Mar 31 2011, 04:01 PM
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I think that answers our suspicions.
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panda
post Mar 31 2011, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (admin @ Mar 31 2011, 04:41 PM) *
We have deleted some posts on this site which we consider to potentially be defamatory. Admin would like to remind users of the forum that abusive or defamatory posts will not be tolerated and could be removed from the site. Please respect the forum rules, which can be found on this website.

Did I miss something????
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dannyboy
post Mar 31 2011, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Mar 31 2011, 05:01 PM) *
I think that answers our suspicions.

Your suspicions.
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panda
post Mar 31 2011, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (dannyboy @ Mar 31 2011, 05:06 PM) *
Your suspicions.

What has happened??
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Andy Capp
post Mar 31 2011, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (panda @ Mar 31 2011, 05:04 PM) *
Did I miss something????

I doubt it! wink.gif tongue.gif

QUOTE (panda @ Mar 31 2011, 05:08 PM) *
What has happened??

Better not; might get another telling off from teach!
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Andy Capp
post Mar 31 2011, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (dannyboy @ Mar 31 2011, 05:06 PM) *
Your suspicions.

You think I am the only one?

QUOTE (admin @ Mar 31 2011, 04:41 PM) *
We have deleted some posts on this site which we consider to potentially be defamatory. Admin would like to remind users of the forum that abusive or defamatory posts will not be tolerated and could be removed from the site. Please respect the forum rules, which can be found on this website.

Franky, I don't think there was anything said that is in anyway defamatory. I think this is obvious that the NWN have been got at, or have a very timid legal team.

I would say that a certain member that was implicated in this matter is certainly guilty of abusive language which has hitherto gone 'unnoticed' by the forum admin.
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panda
post Mar 31 2011, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Mar 31 2011, 06:25 PM) *
You think I am the only one?


Franky, I don't think there was anything said that is in anyway defamatory. I think this is obvious that the NWN have been got at, or have a very timid legal team.

I would say that a certain member that was implicated in this matter is certainly guilty of abusive language which has hitherto gone 'unnoticed' by the forum admin.

who
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Cognosco
post Mar 31 2011, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (panda @ Mar 30 2011, 10:45 PM) *
This is getting to be so boring


Yes you are getting very boring!

I have made several requests for you to enter into the debate sensibly.
You complained that you wanted to put the other side of the story but we were not listening to you?
You were asked for specific information nothing was forthcoming from you.
You have failed to contribute any sensible argument against self management whatsoever.
Your only reason for posting is because you hate Simon Kirby.

So yes this is something we can agree on."This is getting very boring" wink.gif


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panda
post Mar 31 2011, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Mar 31 2011, 07:07 PM) *
Yes you are getting very boring!

I have made several requests for you to enter into the debate sensibly.
You complained that you wanted to put the other side of the story but we were not listening to you?
You were asked for specific information nothing was forthcoming from you.
You have failed to contribute any sensible argument against self management whatsoever.
Your only reason for posting is because you hate Simon Kirby.

So yes this is something we can agree on."This is getting very boring" wink.gif

it is you who are not listening. I keep telling you that i have nothing against self management.It is obvious that you dont take much notice.
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Simon Kirby
post Mar 31 2011, 06:26 PM
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I hope you will indulge me if I make this post again. There's quite a bit at stake for the town here as allotment self-management could save a significant amount of public money, and set a precedent for saving very much more along similar lines. I suggest we ignore the trolls now. I'm making some very specific recommendations to progress self-management and without dwelling on the issues at NTC I believe it will be necessary for a number of us here to put these proposals to the Council together to ensure that the Council implement the initiative. I would be very pleased to see what you think of the approach and know whether you would be prepared to support the proposals publicly. Thanks. Here it is again:

How to migrate Newbury's sites towards self-management, and is it the right thing to do?

The how is easy enough because it's a common enough thing that the process has been studied and best-practice published - see for example Gardeners in Charge from the Allotments Regeneration Initiative.

Newbury is currently at the dependence stage, and the road-map to self-management takes us through participation, delegation, semi-autonomy, and finally to autonomous self-management which is free from any state involvement.

In order to have the capacity and enthusiasm to migrate to autonomous self-management it's pretty much necessary to follow the road-map, and as each stage is stable with meaningful advantages for the allotmenteers it's only really helpful to think about how to get to the next stage. So: how to get to participation, and is it the right thing to do?

Participation:
  • There is a site representative and plotholders informally accept responsibility for minor maintenance works.
  • There might be a mechanism by which the plotholders or site representatives can be consulted on capital expenditure and repairs by the allotment authority.
  • There is no written devolved management agreement between the plotholders and the allotment authority.


So these are the specific changes that NTC need to make to get us to participation:
  • All sites encouraged to form a democratic site association independent of the Council.
  • Site associations encouraged to cut the grass on the common areas.
  • Allotment Stewards appointed by the site association.
  • NTC constitute a joint council/association consultative panel.

And the question about whether it's the right thing to do is easy: yes, or course it is. Even if it leads no further towards self-management, this kind of allotmenteer involvement is healthy and benign, but it builds participation and capacity to migrate further towards self-management. And after a reasonable period it would be natural to think about migrating a little further towards self-management, but only when participation was embedded and stable.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Cognosco
post Mar 31 2011, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE (panda @ Mar 31 2011, 07:25 PM) *
it is you who are not listening. I keep telling you that i have nothing against self management.It is obvious that you dont take much notice.


So I take it you are for self management then? So why the "This is getting so boring" comment? blink.gif




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Andy Capp
post Mar 31 2011, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (panda @ Mar 31 2011, 07:25 PM) *
it is you who are not listening. I keep telling you that i have nothing against self management.It is obvious that you dont take much notice.

So you think it is right to continually post messages that do nothing more that demonstrate your contempt for Simon Kirkby - a forum member - without bringing anything useful to the debate? Indeed, you have seemingly embarked on a campaign to slur Simon Kirkby and spoil his threads and posts. If the forum Admin were fair, they would have censored you for this by now. As they haven't, it only serves to confirm my suspicions. I know others are guilty of similar indiscretions, but this is the topic in hand and serves as an example.


Sorry Simon; as you were saying.
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panda
post Mar 31 2011, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Mar 31 2011, 07:36 PM) *
So I take it you are for self management then? So why the "This is getting so boring" comment? blink.gif

I am open minded on the subject. I would like to know the true facts. What we have here is only Simon Kirby facts and thart to me is worth nothing. I think all he is concerned about is snubbing the council and nothing else. I would like real facts not made up ones.
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