Comprehensive Spending Review, What it means for West Berkshire Options

[user23]

Please don't keep on about front line care workers/emergency services just to make anyone with similar views as my own look heartless, it won't be these people who go ... WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD

Of course it will be some of these people who go, to be replaced by big society volunteers, i.e. you.

So it'll be rubber gloves ready as soon as one of your family needs looking after, unless you can afford private care.

Oh, and welcome to the real world.

[Iommi]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought that figure was spread over 4 years, with a lot of it being taken up by natural wastage and vacated posts not being filled again.

It is a projection, but, I doubt this will work in a linear fashion. In any case, I cannot see why people here think that jobs were sought by people who desired the 'easy life' as public sector employer. I would imagine most people applied for those jobs in good faith like any other person. Why the freak seeing those people losing their jobs could be seen as something to 'celebrate' is beyond me.

Yes Labour might have been disingenuous when they thought the could create practically near full employment, but massive public sector job cuts will put pressure every where else as well.

Beware you private sector employees, there could be a former public sector worker willing to do your job for less!

[user23]

Beware you private sector employees, there could be a former public sector worker willing to do your job for less!

That's what I don't get. What's to celebrate about one's job being threatened by a glut of cheap labour in the market from former public sector employees and then potentially having to act as a care worker, for free, once one gets home at night.

[Iommi]

That's what I don't get. What's to celebrate about one's job being threatened by a glut of cheap labour in the market from former public sector employees and then potentially having to act as a care worker, for free, once one gets home at night.

Precisely...and potentially all this happening in your 80% market value rented social home, with no money to spend anywhere else, and unable to get a mortgage because you cannot save and banks won't lend anyway. And this in a town where the average house is 12 times the national average, so I told.

Now I am not trying to argue for or against here, only that I don't see anything in the CSR as a reason to celebrate whilst waving wads of cash at the poor, in a 'loads of money' fashion.

[user23]

Now I am not trying to argue for or against here, only that I don't see anything in the CSR as a reason to celebrate whilst waving wads of cash at the poor, in a 'loads of money' fashion.

Very true and I'm not arguing against it either, that would be pointless, it's done now.

It just seems strange to me that someone who claims to live in the "real world" says of public sector workers who do the jobs that he no doubt wouldn't like to do, "it won't be these people who go".

There seems very little of the "real world" in this attitude and it seems quite obvious that some elements of the big society are about these workers handing over their rubber gloves and then heading down the dole office with families, perhaps such as his taking on the work.

[Berkshirelad]

Surely the sort of public sector jobs to go will be some of the non-jobs brought in by the previous lot? Like diversity monitors; green travel co-ordinators, etc.

[user23]

Surely the sort of public sector jobs to go will be some of the non-jobs brought in by the previous lot? Like diversity monitors; green travel co-ordinators, etc.

These don't really exist any more to any great extent. There were cuts in 2006/7 following Gershon, more cuts after the following budgets and even deeper cuts after the emergency budget this year.

Perhaps there's a few still kicking around but getting rid of whatever "non-jobs" are left is not going to make up much of the 25% savings needed to be found.

As I said earlier, I'm not arguing against the CSR, just saying that those gloating and thinking it won't directly affect them probably don't live in the "real world".

[Strafin]

I have to back up Dr. Pepper here. In the private sector people are made redundant with no notice all the time, it's not unusual at all, and there is very little sympathy for that, yet when it's the public sector there is outcry from a lot more people. As for the banks being bailed out and paying big bonuses, they are state owned now, that's probably why everyone working there suddenly feels entitled to a small fortune more than they had before. I understand that there is a knock on effect for a community if there is suddenly a large increase in unemploymnent, but all this talk of the council all ending up on the dole queue is typical of public sector workers. Don't go on the dole GET ANOTHER JOB!! The idea that if you leave the council you can't go anywhere else is nonsense, only one person is going to sort you out - you. I reckon that WBC could cut 25% of it's workforce and not worsen their service. 6500 employees to serve 150,000? That's 23 people each, surely there is scope for reduction.

[user23]

I have to back up Dr. Pepper here. In the private sector people are made redundant with no notice all the time, it's not unusual at all, and there is very little sympathy for that, yet when it's the public sector there is outcry from a lot more people. As for the banks being bailed out and paying big bonuses, they are state owned now, that's probably why everyone working there suddenly feels entitled to a small fortune more than they had before. I understand that there is a knock on effect for a community if there is suddenly a large increase in unemploymnent, but all this talk of the council all ending up on the dole queue is typical of public sector workers. Don't go on the dole GET ANOTHER JOB!! The idea that if you leave the council you can't go anywhere else is nonsense, only one person is going to sort you out - you. I reckon that WBC could cut 25% of it's workforce and not worsen their service. 6500 employees to serve 150,000? That's 23 people each, surely there is scope for reduction.

Given 5,000 of those 6,500 employees work in schools the "scope for reduction" would mean larger class sizes, less after school activities and less support for parents. Is this the kind of thing you were thinking of?

[Iommi]

I have to back up Dr. Pepper here. In the private sector people are made redundant with no notice all the time, it's not unusual at all, and there is very little sympathy for that, yet when it's the public sector there is outcry from a lot more people.

I have to ask...where? I hear sympathy (usually) for any mass redundancy, public or private, but redundancy notice is the same for every one. Firms do go to the wall 'all of a sudden' but it usually takes the 'very slow', not to 'see it coming' (except where fraud is involved anyway).

I understand that there is a knock on effect for a community if there is suddenly a large increase in unemploymnent, but all this talk of the council all ending up on the dole queue is typical of public sector workers.

This might be OK where the public sector is proportionally small, but there are other places where they are a significant part of the community.

Don't go on the dole GET ANOTHER JOB!!

Perhaps you should wear a sandwich board with this on and go for a walk in Middlesbrough?

The idea that if you leave the council you can't go anywhere else is nonsense, only one person is going to sort you out - you. I reckon that WBC could cut 25% of it's workforce and not worsen their service. 6500 employees to serve 150,000? That's 23 people each, surely there is scope for reduction.

Nearly a 25% cut in teachers and other people that work in education?


Lets face it, public sector AND private sector jobs are likely to be affected by the CSR.

[Simon Kirby]

Given 5,000 of those 6,500 employees work in schools the "scope for reduction" would mean larger class sizes, less after school activities and less support for parents. Is this the kind of thing you were thinking of?

My guesstimate is that 30,000 of the 150,000 West Berks residents is at school, so at six pupils to every teacher I reckon class sizes could grow a little without much trouble. Seriously though, 5,000? How so?

[Iommi]

My guesstimate is that 30,000 of the 150,000 West Berks residents is at school, so at six pupils to every teacher I reckon class sizes could grow a little without much trouble. Seriously though, 5,000? How so?

Its people who work in education; not just teachers.

[Simon Kirby]

Its people who work in education; not just teachers.

Lunchlady Doris and Groundskeeper Willie, and Superintendent Chalmers, that's three. It's mostly teachers isn't it?

[Iommi]

Lunchlady Doris and Groundskeeper Willie, and Superintendent Chalmers, that's three. It's mostly teachers isn't it?

If you are going to nit-pick, perhaps you should gather your facts first? Perhaps an easy way to look at it it is to ask what the average class size is: 15, 20, 25, 30? I suggest there'll be about one for every load of them.

Lets say 30,000 pupils in a 30 to a class system, that's a 1000 teachers, double it for fun and there you go, perhaps 1 to 2000 of 5000 are teachers?

[Simon Kirby]

If you are going to nit-pick, perhaps you should gather your facts first?

Hey, that's my line.

Perhaps an easy way to look at it it is to ask what the average class size is: 15, 20, 25, 30? I suggest there'll be about one for every load of them.

Lets say 30,000 pupils in a 30 to a class system, that's a 1000 teachers, double it for fun and there you go, perhaps 1 to 2000 of 5000 are teachers?

That's my point. 3 non-teachers to every 2 teachers? That's doesn't sound right. Perhaps there is some scope for cutting.

[user23]

Hey, that's my line.

That's my point. 3 non-teachers to every 2 teachers? That's doesn't sound right. Perhaps there is some scope for cutting.

Who would you get rid of then, the groundsman, the dinner lady or the headteacher?

Incidentally, and back to the point it's the 1,500 non-schools staff that need to find a 25% saving.

[Iommi]

Hey, that's my line.

That's my point. 3 non-teachers to every 2 teachers?

Er, you closed your post with 'It's mostly teachers isn't it?'.

That's doesn't sound right. Perhaps there is some scope for cutting.

There is always scope, but I suggest the jobs were there originally for good reason. I doubt the jobs can be cut while education improves (although no doubt annual reports will say otherwise).

[Simon Kirby]

Who would you get rid of then, the groundsman, the dinner lady or the headteacher?

Incidentally, and back to the point it's the 1,500 non-schools staff that need to find a 25% saving.

I'm just surprised that the ratio of teachers to non-teachers isn't more like 10:1.

To be honest I have very little idea what those 1,500 people do, and I don't think sacking a quarter of them is the best way of finding out. Despite the Daily Mail rhetoric I don't believe most of them are telephone sanitizers (2nd class).

[blackdog]

Yes, you misunderstood. A lot of it will not be taken up by natural wastage. I would class "a lot" as around 80% and I'm sure there's not that level of staff turnover in the public sector over four years.

Average staff turnover in the UK public sector is around 12.5% - there are just over 6,000,000 public sector employees. 12.5% of those comes to 750,000. Over 4 years that is 3,000,000. I suspect that the figure would include an awful lot who go from one public sector job to another - but even so it looks like it could, in theory, be managed entirely by natural wastage.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=407

http://www.hpa.org.uk/AnnualReportAndAccou...rceDevelopment/

[Iommi]

I'm just surprised that the ratio of teachers to non-teachers isn't more like 10:1.

One reason might be that a number of the jobs are not full-time?

Average staff turnover in the UK public sector is around 12.5% - there are just over 6,000,000 public sector employees. 12.5% of those comes to 750,000. Over 4 years that is 3,000,000. I suspect that the figure would include an awful lot who go from one public sector job to another - but even so it looks like it could, in theory, be managed entirely by natural wastage.

I hope that is right, particularly in areas where public sector employment is a significant portion of the population. If I am to gloat, I'll reserve it for times where bad news or pessimistic forecasts are unfounded.