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newres
post May 12 2019, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Blake @ May 11 2019, 09:29 PM) *
Do your homework on this; it was in fact West German government and Jim Callaghan that urged the deployment of GLCM.

I wasn’t even in my teens, but the first result from Google doesn’t really back up what you say and I can’t imagine any Labour government “urging” a deployment here. The US have always been willing to sacrifice Europe in a nuclear war.
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Phil_D11102
post May 13 2019, 07:17 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ May 12 2019, 06:18 PM) *
I wasn’t even in my teens, but the first result from Google doesn’t really back up what you say and I can’t imagine any Labour government “urging” a deployment here. The US have always been willing to sacrifice Europe in a nuclear war.


The Cruise was developed and a deterrent to the Soviet build up of their short and medium range nuclear.

The cruise and NATO resolve did it's job, it brought the Russians to the table and end the Cold War.

If anyone thinks different they need to stop drinking the kool aid made by the Greenham women and CND..
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newres
post May 13 2019, 09:17 AM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 13 2019, 08:17 AM) *
The Cruise was developed and a deterrent to the Soviet build up of their short and medium range nuclear.

The cruise and NATO resolve did it's job, it brought the Russians to the table and end the Cold War.

If anyone thinks different they need to stop drinking the kool aid made by the Greenham women and CND..

That really is just an opinion. Gorbachev becoming leader had nothing to do with Cruise missiles. The Soviets already had plenty of capability to wipe out Western Europe so it wasn’t a deterrent to building more. I can’t pretend to have huge knowledge of the subject, but there’s some obvious nonsense being spouted on here.
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Phil_D11102
post May 14 2019, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ May 13 2019, 10:17 AM) *
That really is just an opinion. Gorbachev becoming leader had nothing to do with Cruise missiles. The Soviets already had plenty of capability to wipe out Western Europe so it wasn’t a deterrent to building more. I can’t pretend to have huge knowledge of the subject, but there’s some obvious nonsense being spouted on here.


Your a bit slow on the uptake. Try reading this..

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/INFtreaty

Gorbachev did play his part, as he saw that NATO wasn't going to bend. Cruise is what made Gorbachev come to the table.

Look at the map in the article, cruise was deployed willingly by NATO. Do you think Russia asked for the opinion of the the GDR and Czechoslovakia?

This in not opinion, it's fact...
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newres
post May 14 2019, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 14 2019, 11:22 AM) *
Your a bit slow on the uptake. Try reading this..

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/INFtreaty

Gorbachev did play his part, as he saw that NATO wasn't going to bend. Cruise is what made Gorbachev come to the table.

Look at the map in the article, cruise was deployed willingly by NATO. Do you think Russia asked for the opinion of the the GDR and Czechoslovakia?

This in not opinion, it's fact...

Gorbachev and Perestroika is what led to arms reduction. Even your link says there was no progress until Gorbachev came along. rolleyes.gif
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je suis Charlie
post May 14 2019, 11:09 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ May 14 2019, 11:42 AM) *
Gorbachev and Perestroika is what led to arms reduction. Even your link says there was no progress until Gorbachev came along. rolleyes.gif

And sod all to do with the gate witches.


--------------------
QUOTE (newres @ Jan 25 2019, 06:47 AM) *
Isn’t it obvious? She's just an uppity.
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Phil_D11102
post May 14 2019, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ May 14 2019, 11:42 AM) *
Gorbachev and Perestroika is what led to arms reduction. Even your link says there was no progress until Gorbachev came along. rolleyes.gif


Gorbachev did have the foresight to move forward and talk to Reagan, and they ultimately did sign the INF treaty. But again what made Gorbachev to make his move? Maybe the "growing number of allied intermediate-range missile warheads in Europe."
No, that couldn't make him do it. Surely it was CND and the peace women.

You seem to forget that the missiles were coming him from the UK down to Italy, where as the Russians were contained to more or less the center of the Warsaw Pact.
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newres
post May 14 2019, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 14 2019, 03:13 PM) *
Gorbachev did have the foresight to move forward and talk to Reagan, and they ultimately did sign the INF treaty. But again what made Gorbachev to make his move? Maybe the "growing number of allied intermediate-range missile warheads in Europe."
No, that couldn't make him do it. Surely it was CND and the peace women.

You seem to forget that the missiles were coming him from the UK down to Italy, where as the Russians were contained to more or less the center of the Warsaw Pact.

What motivated him was his vision of Perestroika which ultimately led to the break up of the Soviet Union. Signing a treaty didn't mean he had to allow the empire to split up. The continued spending was futile and he saw that. Try broadening your perspective a little.

The CND/Peace women argument is a strawman argument.
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Biker1
post May 15 2019, 05:06 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 14 2019, 12:09 PM) *
And sod all to do with the gate witches.

laugh.gif laugh.gif
I like that one!!
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Phil_D11102
post May 15 2019, 07:17 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ May 14 2019, 05:00 PM) *
What motivated him was his vision of Perestroika which ultimately led to the break up of the Soviet Union. Signing a treaty didn't mean he had to allow the empire to split up. The continued spending was futile and he saw that. Try broadening your perspective a little.

The CND/Peace women argument is a strawman argument.


The INF treaty went into effect on the 1st of June 1988. 18 months later, Nicolae Ceauşescu was executed alongside his wife in Bucharest. That was more or less the last of the former Warsaw Pact to shrug off the Soviet yoke.

If you cannot see this, try looking at this:


https://www.bbc.com/bitesize/guides/zq63b9q/revision/4

Yes, Gorbachev had his part, but he realized that the Russians could not keep up with the arms race, hence the INF treaty and the start of the domino effect.
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Strafin
post May 15 2019, 07:55 AM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-48169809

Seems there is more happening than you first thought Phil.
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je suis Charlie
post May 15 2019, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ May 15 2019, 08:55 AM) *
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-48169809

Seems there is more happening than you first thought Phil.

Brilliant! Thanks for the heads up, I'll be there!


--------------------
QUOTE (newres @ Jan 25 2019, 06:47 AM) *
Isn’t it obvious? She's just an uppity.
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Phil_D11102
post May 15 2019, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 15 2019, 09:31 AM) *
Brilliant! Thanks for the heads up, I'll be there!



The event for the 75th D-day anniversary will take place on 22 June.

D-Day occurred the 5th/6th of June, not the 22nd of June.

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newres
post May 15 2019, 11:07 AM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 15 2019, 11:24 AM) *
The event for the 75th D-day anniversary will take place on 22 June.

D-Day occurred the 5th/6th of June, not the 22nd of June.

No pleasing some people.
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Strafin
post May 15 2019, 11:40 AM
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Ex forces.

Nothing is ever good enough, which is why people stop trying.
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Strafin
post May 15 2019, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 15 2019, 09:31 AM) *
Brilliant! Thanks for the heads up, I'll be there!

I think I'll go up for that as well if I can. My Grandad is a D-Day veteran, he also got awarded the Legion D'Honour in 2015, sadly in a home now with dementia, but maybe I can get him out for it as well..
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Phil_D11102
post May 15 2019, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE
Nothing is ever good enough, which is why people stop trying.

No pleasing some people.


Let's celebrate Christmas the 3rd Saturday of every December, or Guy Fawkes the 17th of Nov. Maybe we can have a 53rd anniversary of the England World Cup win.

This is the 75th anniversary of the invasion of Europe.. Many young men died on the beaches and behind the Nazi's line.

This may be the last significant anniversary for those who survived the invasion and para drop.

This is not about not being good enough. It's about something happening here in Newbury/Greenham Common to acknowledge what these brave men did, on the correct day.

Is that really too much to ask for...
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newres
post May 15 2019, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 15 2019, 01:08 PM) *
Let's celebrate Christmas the 3rd Saturday of every December, or Guy Fawkes the 17th of Nov. Maybe we can have a 53rd anniversary of the England World Cup win.

This is the 75th anniversary of the invasion of Europe.. Many young men died on the beaches and behind the Nazi's line.

This may be the last significant anniversary for those who survived the invasion and para drop.

This is not about not being good enough. It's about something happening here in Newbury/Greenham Common to acknowledge what these brave men did, on the correct day.

Is that really too much to ask for...

Surely the important thing is where they dropped and not from their myriad departure points. Dear God!
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Andy1
post May 15 2019, 02:45 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ May 15 2019, 01:26 PM) *
Surely the important thing is where they dropped and not from their myriad departure points. Dear God!


What of those that didn't make it to a LZ. The last place they would have seen and stayed at would have been where they left, of course the departure points are important, regardless of how many.
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newres
post May 15 2019, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Andy1 @ May 15 2019, 03:45 PM) *
What of those that didn't make it to a LZ. The last place they would have seen and stayed at would have been where they left, of course the departure points are important, regardless of how many.

Well that's a fair point, but you have to be practical about it. I think Phil is a bit of a Greenham geek though and I think just expects a bit more than is realistic.
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