Europe Options

[JeffG]

With the Czech Republic finally getting its act together, at least we are spared the prospect of a referendum.

But with Cameron's latest lurch to the right with his anti-European policies, is there now any point to UKIP? I suspect not.

Comparing Brown and Cameron, the words "frying pan" and "fire" come to mind.

[Hugh Saskin]

With the Czech Republic finally getting its act together, at least we are spared the prospect of a referendum.

But with Cameron's latest lurch to the right with his anti-European policies, is there now any point to UKIP? I suspect not.

Comparing Brown and Cameron, the words "frying pan" and "fire" come to mind.

Quite so, Brown is bad enough but I despair at the thought of Prime Minister Cameron - laughing stock of the European Manor

[Iommi]

Yes, to H*ll with democracy.

[JeffG]

Yes, to H*ll with democracy.

I don't regard referenda as helpful to democracy. They are a cause of weak government, and the majority of people do not have the time or, more often, the inclination, to fully acquaint themselves with all the facts of the particular issue being voted on. They go on personal prejudice, or what their favourite newspaper tells them.

Democracy is when you vote for the party which you think represents your views at a General Election, who (if elected), then make decisions on your behalf on all sorts of issues with knowledge of the facts and after a reasoned debate.

At least, that's the theory.

And, I hope, a reasoned reply to your succinct comment.

[Iommi]

I don't regard referenda as helpful to democracy. They are a cause of weak government, and the majority of people do not have the time or, more often, the inclination, to fully acquaint themselves with all the facts of the particular issue being voted on.

Are you talking about the voters, or the politicians?

They go on personal prejudice, or what their favourite newspaper tells them.

This happens every election time already.

Democracy is when you vote for the party which you think represents your views at a General Election, who (if elected), then make decisions on your behalf on all sorts of issues with knowledge of the facts and after a reasoned debate.

Like Iraq and WMD.

[GMR]

I don't regard referenda as helpful to democracy. They are a cause of weak government, and the majority of people do not have the time or, more often, the inclination, to fully acquaint themselves with all the facts of the particular issue being voted on. They go on personal prejudice, or what their favourite newspaper tells them.

Democracy is when you vote for the party which you think represents your views at a General Election, who (if elected), then make decisions on your behalf on all sorts of issues with knowledge of the facts and after a reasoned debate.

At least, that's the theory.

And, I hope, a reasoned reply to your succinct comment.

At one time I would have agreed with you about plebiscites. But not any more. Granted there are some things Governments have to act under their own initiative. But thinks like Europe a referendum is needed.

The trouble is none of the parties actually represents the peoples views. They seem to be all things to all people and then once in have their own hidden agenda.

As you said; in theory the present situation seems ideal (at least for the parties). But in reality it is something totally different.

[JeffG]

Are you talking about the voters, or the politicians?

The voters, actually - I had "hoi polloi" instead of "people" originally, but changed it because I thought it was a bit uppity.

[Iommi]

The voters, actually - I had "hoi polloi" instead of "people" originally, but changed it because I thought it was a bit uppity.

In seriousness, what I do see with the European project is the erosion of 'local democracy'. One's vote becomes ever smaller. Taking into account the current opinion of 'professional' politicians, I feel this is more about them than what is good for a given country or state. Power is being removed from the hoi polloi, possibly because every time they ask for an opinion or a mandate, we stick two fingers at them.

The fact that few countries gave their populous a chance to vote for the treaty, speaks volumes.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

With the Czech Republic finally getting its act together, at least we are spared the prospect of a referendum.

But with Cameron's latest lurch to the right with his anti-European policies, is there now any point to UKIP? I suspect not.

Comparing Brown and Cameron, the words "frying pan" and "fire" come to mind.

IF Cameron gets in are you going to give the guy a chance? (I'm no fan by the way) I suspect not. Shame. Its called Democracy. We have an unelected Prime Minister and will soon have an unelected head of Europe. At least whoever wins the next election will have been elected!!!!!!

[JeffG]

IF Cameron gets in are you going to give the guy a chance? (I'm no fan by the way) I suspect not.

I don't really think that "if" comes into that equation. If his recent pronouncements are just posturing to appease the far right anti-European wing of his party, as has been suggested by political commentators, then all well and good. You suspect incorrectly.

[user23]

IF Cameron gets in are you going to give the guy a chance? (I'm no fan by the way) I suspect not. Shame. Its called Democracy. We have an unelected Prime Minister and will soon have an unelected head of Europe. At least whoever wins the next election will have been elected!!!!!!

No Prime Minister is elected by the general public, they're given the position as leader of the party with the most MPs.

No one in living Newbury voted for the previous Prime Minister Tony Blair, and that's not just because pretty much no one in Newbury votes Labour anyway!

[Iommi]

No Prime Minister is elected by the general public, they're given the position as leader of the party with the most MPs.

It seems to me that what the person meant was the current PM hasn't fought a General Election as the leader of the party.

[user23]

It seems clear to me that what the person meant was the current PM hasn't fought a General Election as the leader of the party.

Yes I got that. What I was saying is one doesn't vote for the leader of the party, one votes for their local MP (who they think is the best candidate for the job) under the First Past the Post system we have for most elections in this country. Or at least they should do.

[Iommi]

Yes I got that. What I was saying is one doesn't vote for the leader of the party, one votes for their local MP (who they think is the best candidate fo the job) under the First Past the Post system we have for most elections in this country. Or at least they should do, if they don't.

Sadly it doesn't always work like that. In Newbury, to maximise a chance for a Labour government, one would have to vote Lib Dem, thus weakening the amount of Tory seats in the house. As what happened 11 years ago.

So perversely, if I wanted Blair to win the '97 general election, I had to vote Lib Dem.

[user23]

Sadly it doesn't always work like that. In Newbury, to maximise a chance for a Labour government, one would have to vote Lib Dem, thus weakening the amount of Tory seats in the house. As what happened 11 years ago.

So perversely, if I wanted Blair to win the '97 general election, I had to vote Lib Dem.

A Labour / Lib Dem coalition would not be out of the question after the next election.

[On the edge]

A Labour / Lib Dem coalition would not be out of the question after the next election.

When we all thought it couldn't get worse - some real black humour!

[Thirtover]

A Labour / Lib Dem coalition would not be out of the question after the next election.

Then that would really be the end of democracy. A govt run by concesus by parties many people wouldn't vote for. A proportional representation voting system and maybe Tony could become President of UK if he doesn't get Europe.

Then it would be time to leave