IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Saints Preserve Us
Simon Kirby
post Apr 28 2017, 10:24 AM
Post #21


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 28 2017, 10:06 AM) *
Edmund, went to defend England against invading heathens, lost, got taken prisoner, got his head cut off by blokes with funny names and big beards. Hmm, yeah, that resonates down the ages done it?

You're missing the point. St. Edmund was defending East Anglia from European aggression, whereas St. George was the European aggressor provoking the hostility of the Muslim world by invading their country, and yes, that still resonates.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Apr 28 2017, 10:46 AM
Post #22


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



Worth mentioning that in Newbury we don't really celebrate the example of either St. George or St. Edmund who both had the fortitude to defy oppression and be killed for their belief, whereas the fat-cat industrialist, magistrate Winchcombe, who immolated Joscelyn Palmer and the other Newbury martyrs, is himself venerated with a portrait in the town hall and is soon to get a nine-feet tall statue in the high street.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Turin Machine
post Apr 28 2017, 10:58 AM
Post #23


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 2,682
Joined: 23-September 10
From: In the lower 40
Member No.: 1,104



Just as, Henry Viii, Elizabeth 1st and many other stalwarts of British history are emblematic of true 'Britishness' whilst also being mere products of their time. But then this is true of any nation, any group or sect. Everyone always reveres those in history who often have the bloodiest hands, even the blessed saint Edmund was guilty of ordering the savage and brutal slaying of Danish prisoners, something conveniently passed over by both the church and by most historians. Not everything is as black and white as it often appears.


--------------------
Gammon. And proud!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Apr 28 2017, 12:21 PM
Post #24


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 28 2017, 11:58 AM) *
Just as, Henry Viii, Elizabeth 1st and many other stalwarts of British history are emblematic of true 'Britishness' whilst also being mere products of their time. But then this is true of any nation, any group or sect. Everyone always reveres those in history who often have the bloodiest hands, even the blessed saint Edmund was guilty of ordering the savage and brutal slaying of Danish prisoners, something conveniently passed over by both the church and by most historians. Not everything is as black and white as it often appears.

Yes, I wouldn't dispute the thrust of that, though as I understand it the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle had almost nothing to say about Edmund save for the manner of his death and that was the only near-contemporary evidence that he ever existed and even then was written twenty years after his death.

But heroes aren't people, they're ideals, personifications of some characteristic that the story-tellers want to promote, be they Nelson, Jesus, Achilles, Hazel, or Winchcombe. It's really just a matter of choosing what characteristics we want to promote and what we hope to get out of it.

I'm not so very much into the ideal of some martial zealot killing dragons in Syria, whereas the allegory of a Saxon King accepting death rather than bowing to tyranny speaks to me.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Turin Machine
post Apr 28 2017, 12:59 PM
Post #25


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 2,682
Joined: 23-September 10
From: In the lower 40
Member No.: 1,104



QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 28 2017, 01:21 PM) *
Yes, I wouldn't dispute the thrust of that, though as I understand it the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle had almost nothing to say about Edmund save for the manner of his death and that was the only near-contemporary evidence that he ever existed and even then was written twenty years after his death.

But heroes aren't people, they're ideals, personifications of some characteristic that the story-tellers want to promote, be they Nelson, Jesus, Achilles, Hazel, or Winchcombe. It's really just a matter of choosing what characteristics we want to promote and what we hope to get out of it.

I'm not so very much into the ideal of some martial zealot killing dragons in Syria, whereas the allegory of a Saxon King accepting death rather than bowing to tyranny speaks to me.

I think the truth is closer to the fact that he was dead meat anyway, a Mercian king captured by the Danes? Most English history at that time was written by clerics desperate to keep the ideals of Christianity alive, just look at the sheer amount of Saxon saints and why the are on the list its really staggering. So killed for failing to renounce Christianity? Doubt it, just gilding the lily.


--------------------
Gammon. And proud!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Apr 28 2017, 01:54 PM
Post #26


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 28 2017, 01:59 PM) *
I think the truth is closer to the fact that he was dead meat anyway, a Mercian king captured by the Danes? Most English history at that time was written by clerics desperate to keep the ideals of Christianity alive, just look at the sheer amount of Saxon saints and why the are on the list its really staggering. So killed for failing to renounce Christianity? Doubt it, just gilding the lily.


Yer, there must have been another reason. Like all that bull we are taught about kids being hung in the 18th centuary simply because they'd lifted something worth more than a shilling. When really just frightners to get the little s---- off to Oz pronto.


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Apr 28 2017, 09:09 PM
Post #27


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 28 2017, 01:59 PM) *
I think the truth is closer to the fact that he was dead meat anyway, a Mercian king captured by the Danes? Most English history at that time was written by clerics desperate to keep the ideals of Christianity alive, just look at the sheer amount of Saxon saints and why the are on the list its really staggering. So killed for failing to renounce Christianity? Doubt it, just gilding the lily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3TmzpwVfZY


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Turin Machine
post Apr 28 2017, 09:45 PM
Post #28


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 2,682
Joined: 23-September 10
From: In the lower 40
Member No.: 1,104



QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 28 2017, 10:09 PM) *

Yay! Lisa, my favourite lil agitator and iconoclast! Bless. smile.gif smile.gif


--------------------
Gammon. And proud!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 11:24 PM