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> First bankers, now cars makers
Andy Capp
post Sep 22 2015, 09:53 AM
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In this alleged free market economy, people should be going to gaol.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34322016
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je suis Charlie
post Sep 22 2015, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 22 2015, 10:53 AM) *
In this alleged free market economy, people should be going to gaol.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34322016

Car manufacturers have always massaged their emissions / consumption data, nothing to see here, move along please.


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Biker1
post Sep 22 2015, 11:06 AM
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Annoying though that some VW owners have been getting away with less road tax than they should be paying.
Road tax is now based on emission figures, yes?
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je suis Charlie
post Sep 22 2015, 11:28 AM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Sep 22 2015, 12:06 PM) *
Annoying though that some VW owners have been getting away with less road tax than they should be paying.
Road tax is now based on emission figures, yes?

Except that the emissions standards and testing are completely different in Europe than over there. Oh and it just isn't VW doing it either. All new diesel engines are Euro 6 compliant.


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motormad
post Sep 22 2015, 11:45 AM
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I love how my diesel spits out red hot soot at high EGTS smile.gif


I suspect VW are not the only manufacturer to do this. Including on some petrol models.
Note it was a green-"cars are awful" group who discovered it.



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je suis Charlie
post Sep 22 2015, 12:14 PM
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And the first head falls into the basket as the head of VW resigns. Could do no less.


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On the edge
post Sep 22 2015, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Sep 22 2015, 12:45 PM) *
I love how my diesel spits out red hot soot at high EGTS smile.gif


I suspect VW are not the only manufacturer to do this. Including on some petrol models.
Note it was a green-"cars are awful" group who discovered it.


Actually, umm....

The cynic in me keeps wondering why the Americans always find its the 'foreign firms' who somehow break their regulations....odd that isn't it.



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Andy Capp
post Sep 22 2015, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 22 2015, 05:04 PM) *
Actually, umm....

The cynic in me keeps wondering why the Americans always find its the 'foreign firms' who somehow break their regulations....odd that isn't it.

I understand American firms have been done under similar deals as well.
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Andy Capp
post Sep 22 2015, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Sep 22 2015, 11:58 AM) *
Car manufacturers have always massaged their emissions / consumption data, nothing to see here, move along please.

Of course there's something to see here: this is corporate fraud.
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je suis Charlie
post Sep 22 2015, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 22 2015, 05:15 PM) *
Of course there's something to see here: this is corporate fraud.

Why? Is your VW not the car it was last week? The fact is that the US regulatory body set VW a test, which they passed, which every manufacturer passed. Its merely VW who have been held up as the whipping boy, just wait to see who else gets caught up in this. Its like an not, just cos its OK now doesn't mean it's OK when it drives down the road.


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spartacus
post Sep 22 2015, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Sep 22 2015, 05:36 PM) *
Why? Is your VW not the car it was last week? The fact is that the US regulatory body set VW a test, which they passed, which every manufacturer passed. Its merely VW who have been held up as the whipping boy, just wait to see who else gets caught up in this. Its like an not, just cos its OK now doesn't mean it's OK when it drives down the road.

At first glance though (I'm not that bothered as I don't own any VW shares) it seems quite a wheeze to knowingly adjust software so that it defeats or blocks out any negative results in order to promote the brand and put one over the opposition. A criminal wheeze, but clever all the same.....
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Andy Capp
post Sep 22 2015, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Sep 22 2015, 05:36 PM) *
Why? Is your VW not the car it was last week? The fact is that the US regulatory body set VW a test, which they passed, which every manufacturer passed. Its merely VW who have been held up as the whipping boy, just wait to see who else gets caught up in this. Its like an not, just cos its OK now doesn't mean it's OK when it drives down the road.

I don't have a VW, but that is irrelevant because no, it is not the car I bought, had I bought one. Your MOT analogy is also specious as that is a different matter. That's down to chance where as what VW were doing was purposely misleading its customers and making false claims, and there are rules about that.

Whether or not VW are the only ones (I very much doubt they are) is also irrelevant.
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Strafin
post Sep 22 2015, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Sep 22 2015, 12:06 PM) *
Annoying though that some VW owners have been getting away with less road tax than they should be paying.
Road tax is now based on emission figures, yes?

Road Tax?
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On the edge
post Sep 22 2015, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 22 2015, 05:15 PM) *
Of course there's something to see here: this is corporate fraud.


That seems pretty clear. Integrity isn't a word that's used much in our capitalist society. Given what we see day after day, should we even be surprised any more?


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CrackerJack
post Sep 22 2015, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Sep 22 2015, 10:11 PM) *
Road Tax?

You know what he's referring to don't you?
Car Tax.

smile.gif


QUOTE (Biker1 @ Sep 22 2015, 12:06 PM) *
Annoying though that some VW owners have been getting away with less road tax than they should be paying.
Road tax is now based on emission figures, yes?

Our Vehicle Tax rates are based on CO2 emissions. This current spat is to do with NOx emissions, which is a key measurement in vehicle testing in the US due to it being the major component of smog and their weather being more prone to impact of that pollutant, especially in California etc. They don't like diesel cars. In particular they don't like foreign diesel cars.

The more you read about this the more you feel a certain amount of Schadenfreude initially given that British car manufacturing has been largely knocked out thanks to the vagaries of the EU and British Governments. But then you wake up and realise that this is just another attack by the US lobbyists to protect their home-grown gas-guzzling mega-motor industry.

The US legal system is there to protect US interests at all costs and hinder any foreign competition. It is that blatant. There are many cases of the US legal (you can't say "justice") system heavily penalising foreign companies whilst ignoring (or only giving a slap on the wrists) for US companies doing similar.

This is worse where US companies ignore patents and copyrights from foreign companies.


Car engines have relied on software for many years. Basically, all major manufacturers try their best to fiddle the figures and grab the lion's share of the market and unfortunately it's virtually impossible to meet the EU and US NOx emission standards without very expensive trickery fitted to the engine - which would have the side effect of killing the efficiency and thus fuel consumption. VW are the first to suffer. Others will follow. I wouldn't be surprised if the VW disaster recovery lawyers are working on a plan to deflect the spotlight from them and onto the entire industry within the day.


However the spat with VW is nothing compared to the shenanigans with GM....

Federal prosecutors have agreed to settle a criminal probe into General Motors for concealing an ignition switch defect linked to at least 124 DEATHS. Under the deal, General Motors agreed to pay $900 million as part of a deferred prosecution agreement, but no GM executives will be prosecuted for covering up the deadly defect. The Justice Department’s deal with GM has been widely criticized by consumer advocates and families who lost loved ones.

Clarence Ditlow, head of the Center for Auto Safety, said, "GM killed over 100 people by knowingly putting a defective ignition switch into over 1 million vehicles. … Today, thanks to its lobbyists, GM officials walk off scot-free while its customers are six feet under."



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CrackerJack
post Sep 23 2015, 05:22 AM
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The game here is about NOx which is one of the main toxic components of exhaust fumes. Diesels produce more NOx than petrol due to the higher combustion pressures.

When you hook up a vehicle to the test rig it (the test rig) monitors various parameters via the engine management system and sensors. VW, GM, and several others [probably all] have written a routine into the software that detects when the test kit is hooked up and operates the engine in such a way that NOx emissions are reduced.

NOx is formed by heat and pressure and since turbo diesels a) run hot and cool.gif generate lots of pressure in the cylinders, they generate more NOx than petrol engines.

Basically reducing NOx increases particulates and vice versa. So, when on test you run the engine in a mode the reduces NOx but will eventually clog up the DPF and Cat. Since the test is short, you can afford to this and then revert to normal operation once the test has finished.
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Biker1
post Sep 23 2015, 07:22 AM
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QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Sep 22 2015, 10:56 PM) *
You know what he's referring to don't you?
Car Tax.

smile.gif



Our Vehicle Tax rates are based on CO2 emissions. This current spat is to do with NOx emissions, which is a key measurement in vehicle testing in the US due to it being the major component of smog and their weather being more prone to impact of that pollutant, especially in California etc.

I see, thanks for clearing that up rather than being pedantic about what kind of tax it is. rolleyes.gif
I am old enough to remember when it was called Road Fund Licence (Tax). tongue.gif
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motormad
post Sep 23 2015, 09:05 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Sep 22 2015, 05:36 PM) *
Why? Is your VW not the car it was last week? The fact is that the US regulatory body set VW a test, which they passed, which every manufacturer passed. Its merely VW who have been held up as the whipping boy, just wait to see who else gets caught up in this. Its like an not, just cos its OK now doesn't mean it's OK when it drives down the road.


I agree.
I don't think this matters one bit to consumers (it certainly wouldn't bother me).
A lot of cars have lean burn routines written into the ECU


It makes me laugh.

There is a HUGE diesel tuning scene in America.
Mainly for massive American Pickups, Ford F150s, Dodge Rams, and so on.

Nothing seems to be done about these? wink.gif



Just an easy target.


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motormad
post Sep 23 2015, 10:03 AM
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further to that



Vehicle A = 2012 Jetta SportWagen TDI DSG (LNT), Vehicle B = 2013 Passat TDI DSG (SCR), Vehicle C = 2013 BMW X5 xDrive35d (SCR)

as you can see even the bmw is over on the route 3 test..... no fuss for them!


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Andy Capp
post Sep 23 2015, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Sep 23 2015, 10:05 AM) *
I agree.
I don't think this matters one bit to consumers (it certainly wouldn't bother me).
A lot of cars have lean burn routines written into the ECU

It makes me laugh.

There is a HUGE diesel tuning scene in America.
Mainly for massive American Pickups, Ford F150s, Dodge Rams, and so on.

Nothing seems to be done about these? wink.gif

Just an easy target.

This is all besides the point. the fact is VW (and I sure others do too) wilfully deceived its customers.
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