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> Local Headteacher earns more than PM, Kennet and Trinity head earns £175k a year
DrPepper
post Jul 25 2010, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 25 2010, 07:24 AM) *
Aaah - perhaps its just that. WBC often advertise part time jobs (ironically often for school support staff) at the full rate and when you read the text, it mentions the hours and says the pay will be pro rata. So I'm sure we've all misunderstood and under the Council rules Mr D only gets one Head Teachers salary.......sorry, I drifted off for a moment! laugh.gif


Obvious now you say it, what were we thinking rolleyes.gif
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On the edge
post Jul 25 2010, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (Ziggy @ Jul 25 2010, 07:58 AM) *
I think the LA has made a good call seconding Mr D to Trinity. There is a national shortage of headteachers - many jobs are readvertised and some very inexperienced people have been given headships. And let's face it, locally there seem to have been some poor appointments (look at how many schools have been in special measures). Better to have an excellent HT in charge (albeit part time) than appoint another who is incapable of changing things.


Without breaking too many confidences from what I've seen of the 'Head' selection method - it isn't a matter of shortage, more a matter of poor process. If inexperienced people are appointed why aren't they being mentored? I agree, given the special measures many local schools get into - there have been some poor appointments. Why hasn't that been picked up much earlier? So it comes down to the need for better direction and management again. The self same people who haven't noticed the poor appointments, failed to mentor the nexperienced are the ones who pay double rates to put things right. The cash paid to Mr D might well be justified, BUT if his attention was directed to the whole problem - not just one failure. Why isn't he released to create and implement his obviously successful approach? Local Education Authority - hang your heads in shame! No wonder academy schools are seen to be an answer.


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Exhausted
post Jul 25 2010, 05:37 PM
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In the private sector, people move about in senior positions, gradually moving on until they either reach the level of their incompetence or score that top job. These people are scored on their skills and what they do for the company and are normally required to report to a board of directors, including, when they themselves reach board level. The board normally understands the business they are in to the nth degree so the cast offs get moved out fairly quickly.

Do we have an informed structure within the teaching industry and do we have the people at the top who make the appointments, sufficiently skilled in order to make these person judgements so that the whole level of teaching professional standards goes up. The answer is probably not and maybe there is a need to get the Mr D's of this world gradually moving further up the ladder so that we can have, for example, a UK el Supremo Head who deals with the teaching structure rather than a glut of council employees and civil servants setting targets and standards who have almost certainly never stood in front of an unruly class in their life.

The question was asked earlier about soldiers, sailors and airmen risking their lives for not much money. But, there is a chain of command and any serving person in todays armed forces could get the top job. How much does the first sea lord get per annum?? The same, in my opinion goes with any structure, do the job, learn the ropes and with a lot of ambition and a little luck the top job is there.

Don't expect top dollar for stacking the shelves.
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Andy1
post Jul 25 2010, 06:26 PM
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The question was asked earlier about soldiers, sailors and airmen risking their lives for not much money. But, there is a chain of command and any serving person in todays armed forces could get the top job. How much does the first sea lord get per annum?? The same, in my opinion goes with any structure, do the job, learn the ropes and with a lot of ambition and a little luck the top job is there.

Don't expect top dollar for stacking the shelves.
[/quote]

A squaddie could not progress through the ranks to General let alone the top job. If they managed to progress through the ranks and get a commision they wouldn't get further than Major. I wouldn't compare what these guy's are doing to stacking shelves, even if it is a term of phrase
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Exhausted
post Jul 25 2010, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Andy1 @ Jul 25 2010, 07:26 PM) *
A squaddie could not progress through the ranks to General let alone the top job. If they managed to progress through the ranks and get a commision they wouldn't get further than Major. I wouldn't compare what these guy's are doing to stacking shelves, even if it is a term of phrase


Not true in today's armed forces. Might apply in the Guards but the rest of the service is open season. Education and ability.
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Andy1
post Jul 25 2010, 10:30 PM
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QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jul 25 2010, 08:57 PM) *
Not true in today's armed forces. Might apply in the Guards but the rest of the service is open season. Education and ability.


Sorry I guess you know of some people who have done it then because I not aware of anyone getting passed Major who didn't start out in OCS
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spartacus
post Jul 25 2010, 11:06 PM
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I have one friend who served with me who went through the ranks and is now a full Colonel and have another who is Lieutenant Colonel (although he re-badged from the Engineers). Admittedly, most have reached their ceiling by the time they get their Major.
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DrPepper
post Jul 26 2010, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jul 25 2010, 06:37 PM) *
In the private sector, people move about in senior positions, gradually moving on until they either reach the level of their incompetence or score that top job. These people are scored on their skills and what they do for the company and are normally required to report to a board of directors, including, when they themselves reach board level. The board normally understands the business they are in to the nth degree so the cast offs get moved out fairly quickly.

Do we have an informed structure within the teaching industry and do we have the people at the top who make the appointments, sufficiently skilled in order to make these person judgements so that the whole level of teaching professional standards goes up. The answer is probably not and maybe there is a need to get the Mr D's of this world gradually moving further up the ladder so that we can have, for example, a UK el Supremo Head who deals with the teaching structure rather than a glut of council employees and civil servants setting targets and standards who have almost certainly never stood in front of an unruly class in their life.

The question was asked earlier about soldiers, sailors and airmen risking their lives for not much money. But, there is a chain of command and any serving person in todays armed forces could get the top job. How much does the first sea lord get per annum?? The same, in my opinion goes with any structure, do the job, learn the ropes and with a lot of ambition and a little luck the top job is there.

Don't expect top dollar for stacking the shelves.


That is the problem, unqualified civil servants that make the appointments in the first place. Although don't the school governors have a say also? Although they are usually not qualified in any form as to regards the teaching profession either.

As exhausted says, what it needs is a private sector structure and management style, with the like of Mr D rising to the top to lead from experience. Or even the likes of Mr D having the position of "General Manager" and managing maybe all of West Berks schools in a position above the heads. This could then be repeated uk wide.

Again this is probably to simple, and would require little or no input from civil servants and politicians so stands no chance of ever happening unsure.gif
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user23
post Jul 26 2010, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (DrPepper @ Jul 26 2010, 08:38 AM) *
That is the problem, unqualified civil servants that make the appointments in the first place. Although don't the school governors have a say also? Although they are usually not qualified in any form as to regards the teaching profession either.

As exhausted says, what it needs is a private sector structure and management style, with the like of Mr D rising to the top to lead from experience. Or even the likes of Mr D having the position of "General Manager" and managing maybe all of West Berks schools in a position above the heads. This could then be repeated uk wide.

Again this is probably to simple, and would require little or no input from civil servants and politicians so stands no chance of ever happening unsure.gif
Wasn't the guy who runs Education in West Berkshire, now in the position of "General Manager" formerly a headteacher?

As far as I'm aware civil servants don't make appointments, local authorities do and what you're saying stands no chance of ever happening is what actually happens now anyway.
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On the edge
post Jul 26 2010, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jul 26 2010, 06:55 PM) *
Wasn't the guy who runs Education in West Berkshire, now in the position of "General Manager" formerly a headteacher?

As far as I'm aware civil servants don't make appointments, local authorities do and what you're saying stands no chance of ever happening is what actually happens now anyway.



If this is the case - then we really do have a problem with our LEA. Clearly doesn't work.


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user23
post Jul 26 2010, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 26 2010, 07:01 PM) *
If this is the case - then we really do have a problem with our LEA. Clearly doesn't work.
But isn't this what happens across the whole country, experienced teaching staff taking positions at the LEA?

What's the problem with that?
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On the edge
post Jul 26 2010, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jul 26 2010, 07:16 PM) *
But isn't this what happens across the whole country, experienced teaching staff taking positions at the LEA?

What's the problem with that?


Don't think that is a problem - in fact it would help us. Here we appear to have an LEA that presides over a fair number of failing schools. One that seems to have a problem making the right head teacher appointments. Nevertheless, it does have a good head teacher and one with a national reputation. However, rather than seizing the opportunity and promoting the good head teacher to implement best practice across the district, it simply asks him to sort out a problem school - in addition to of his own workload! So in spite of what I see in the press, I don't think the problem is simply incompetent teachers; there are incompetent managers as well. The latter needing attention first; as that's where the leadership and direction should be coming. I certainly have no issue with the abilities of Mr D. - indeed, if he really can manage two full time jobs on his own, then he deserves the money. However, in reality can he? Equally, he can only going to bring some order to the troubled school ready for someone else to take over - well and good but that's back to square one!


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user23
post Jul 26 2010, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 26 2010, 07:59 PM) *
Don't think that is a problem - in fact it would help us. Here we appear to have an LEA that presides over a fair number of failing schools.
How many schools are "failing", can you post your source please?

Wasn't their an issue earlier in the year with many people over the RBC border sending their kids to WBC schools, because the latter were so much better?
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On the edge
post Jul 26 2010, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jul 26 2010, 08:32 PM) *
How many schools are "failing", can you post your source please?

Wasn't their an issue earlier in the year with many people over the RBC border sending their kids to WBC schools, because the latter were so much better?


Quite a number have been - NWN have reported Fir Tree, Greenham, and St. Nicholas are examples. Some are coming out, granted - but the issue is why they got there in the first place. I haven't heard that 'over the boarder' attendees thought things were better - just distance to travel; might well be wrong on that one.


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Exhausted
post Jul 26 2010, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jul 26 2010, 06:55 PM) *
As far as I'm aware civil servants don't make appointments, local authorities do and what you're saying stands no chance of ever happening is what actually happens now anyway.


Therein lies the rub........
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DrPepper
post Jul 27 2010, 07:29 AM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jul 26 2010, 06:55 PM) *
Wasn't the guy who runs Education in West Berkshire, now in the position of "General Manager" formerly a headteacher?

As far as I'm aware civil servants don't make appointments, local authorities do and what you're saying stands no chance of ever happening is what actually happens now anyway.


Sorry, perhaps I got have this wrong, but I was counting West Berks Council employees as Civil Servants (Definition: Civil service employment encompasses employment in Federal, state or provincial, and local governmental agencies).

If the guy who does run education in West Berks was a head, and if he has been doing this job for a number of years (a lot of if's I know - I'll get the facts when I have time!) then should he have not been replaced by now if we have so many special measure schools (Trinity, Compton Primary, John O'Gaunt, and those mentioned by "on the edge")?

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user23
post Jul 27 2010, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (DrPepper @ Jul 27 2010, 08:29 AM) *
Sorry, perhaps I got have this wrong, but I was counting West Berks Council employees as Civil Servants (Definition: Civil service employment encompasses employment in Federal, state or provincial, and local governmental agencies).
No, this isn't the case in the UK. Local government employees aren't Civil Servants.
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Ziggy
post Jul 28 2010, 06:02 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 26 2010, 07:59 PM) *
Nevertheless, it does have a good head teacher and one with a national reputation. However, rather than seizing the opportunity and promoting the good head teacher to implement best practice across the district, it simply asks him to sort out a problem school - in addition to of his own workload! So in spite of what I see in the press, I don't think the problem is simply incompetent teachers; there are incompetent managers as well.

Perhaps you have hit on the problem here and one that is interesting given the forthcoming budget cuts. The LA appears to employ advisory teachers and specialists who go around from school to school but are not generally school based themselves. In fact, if I recall right, it was someone from the LA (and not Ofsted) who declared there to be problems at Fir Tree Primary. Can someone who is NOT based in a school be the best person to offer advice? Is there a better and more productive way of organising this? As for incompetence ... schools are monitored by Ofsted and the LA. Teachers are regularly monitored by their Headteachers. So competency is beng dealt with there. So who were the advisors to all these schools that are not satisfactory? And who is monitoring the advisors' performance?
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blackdog
post Jul 28 2010, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jul 27 2010, 07:54 PM) *
No, this isn't the case in the UK. Local government employees aren't Civil Servants.

They may not be Civil Servants, but they are civil servants - or should be.
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DrPepper
post Jul 31 2010, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 28 2010, 09:36 AM) *
They may not be Civil Servants, but they are civil servants - or should be.


Yes, what is really the difference - they are paid out of the public purse thus making them employee's of the state and hence civil servants. Thank goodness there will soon be less of them.
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