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> Water and hills
Simon Kirby
post Jul 11 2017, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jul 11 2017, 07:17 PM) *
Wasn't me that started it on this thread!
Didn't you spot the tongue-in-cheek emoticon?? laugh.gif

Fair enough. wink.gif


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Simon Kirby
post Jul 11 2017, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 11 2017, 11:37 AM) *
My submission is that placing it under the auspices of an "outside" organisation does not in itself guarantee the continuation of the status quo. Is it of greater importance to generate prosperity in an area or maintain it like a museum frozen in time?
Little doubt World Heritage Status will assist the local economy but the cost to the environment is the footprint of the increase in countless walkers on the fells.
The "visitor centre" at Stonehenge is a monstrous blot on the landscape as opposed to a direct contributor to the traffic chaos. If the stones were not there the problem would still exist. Based on that premise if we moved Winterbourne Stoke and upgraded the 303 to dual carriageway for its entire length then it would benefit many, ( as did the Newbury bypass ), but is it right?

Incidentally, I have given your question over evidential support a little thought and to be honest most of it is anecdotal and therefore of little clout. Let us return to this in 100 years and see.

I don't think your A303 example helps your argument.

Whether or not the UNESCO WHS designation helps or hinders the landscape, inhabitants, and visitors is open for debate and I suggest it depends very much on your perspective.


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blackdog
post Jul 12 2017, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 11 2017, 04:50 PM) *
Surely our existing legislation deals with the potential for over development. In the case of the Lake District it's reinforced by the National Park rules as well. Arguably, by applying the UNESCO status, the Chairman is insulting our Governance by implying we can't or won't protect this area ourselves, so like some third world republic, we need help.


Yes, thankfully our existing legislation protects against the market forces you were promoting. UNESCO status is an irrelevance in those terms - it's benefits will be a slight increase in the promotion of the area as a tourist destination - in essence defeating its own aims if those aims are the protection of a rural landscape.

Interesting point though, does UNESCO status have any impact in British/European law?
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 12 2017, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 12 2017, 07:32 PM) *
Interesting point though, does UNESCO status have any impact in British/European law?

It's managed through the usual planning legislation, much like an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty. The National Park designation already provides good protection and like you say the WHS designation is just kudos.


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On the edge
post Jul 12 2017, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 12 2017, 07:32 PM) *
Yes, thankfully our existing legislation protects against the market forces you were promoting. UNESCO status is an irrelevance in those terms - it's benefits will be a slight increase in the promotion of the area as a tourist destination - in essence defeating its own aims if those aims are the protection of a rural landscape.

Interesting point though, does UNESCO status have any impact in British/European law?


To be honest, it was more a poor attempt at irony on my part; driven by the erosion of the 'Green Belt' paricularly round London. I suspect UNESCO status has absolutely no impact on English law; save as a component of pleadings in defence of any proposed incursion, which gives a little more strength to those seeking to protect. As countless examples even round here demonstrate, we are pretty cavalier when it comes to protecting such areas.


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SirWilliam
post Sep 13 2017, 10:06 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-41227359

£1.6 billion just in case the sun decides to show it's face in the middle of December ? Plotus Lostus comes to mind .

Yes the 303 has a problem that needs addressing , and it aint going to be cheap but for that sort of money they could upgrade to dual carriageway from Amesbury to Honiton , including a new section going North of Winterbourne Stoke .

Why does traffic use this route over M4 / M5 when everyone knows they are going to be held up anyway ?

I surmise that if you are using someone elses money all they need to do is have austerity for another 20 years and it will be paid for . angry.gif


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Biker1
post Sep 13 2017, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Sep 13 2017, 11:06 AM) *
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-41227359
Why does traffic use this route over M4 / M5 when everyone knows they are going to be held up anyway ?

I should imagine that one of the reasons is that it is about 35 miles shorter.
In these days of major concern about the emissions of cars (ref. the diesel debarcle!) maybe folks think this matters?
Also, if everyone currently using the 303 switched to M4/5 then I would imagine that they would become a car park themselves?

As an aside there was one comment from someone on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday who declared he wanted things to remain as they are as he and his kids enjoyed the slow ride past the monument and that this was of historical value to his children!! wink.gif laugh.gif
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On the edge
post Sep 13 2017, 01:45 PM
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Surprises me that no one has suggested moving the stones.


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newres
post Sep 13 2017, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 13 2017, 02:45 PM) *
Surprises me that no one has suggested moving the stones.

And the mountains as let's be honest they aren't in a very convenient location. My suggestion would be a straight swap with the Chilterns and that way they'd be more convenient for us in the south and I doubt the northerners would mind as whippets aren't good on mountains.
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SirWilliam
post Sep 13 2017, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 13 2017, 02:45 PM) *
Surprises me that no one has suggested moving the stones.


If stone age man can, ( supposedly ), drag the wretched things all the way from Wales , a low loader should have no problem taking them back .

On a par with the Elgin marbles it's a wonder that the Welsh office hasn't already petitioned . We could throw in Avebury stones as a gesture of goodwill . rolleyes.gif


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On the edge
post Sep 14 2017, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Sep 13 2017, 06:08 PM) *
If stone age man can, ( supposedly ), drag the wretched things all the way from Wales , a low loader should have no problem taking them back .

On a par with the Elgin marbles it's a wonder that the Welsh office hasn't already petitioned . We could throw in Avebury stones as a gesture of goodwill . rolleyes.gif


On the matter of the marbles, given the state of the Greek economy, now would be a good time to offer them a few bob to settle the sale question once and for all. We could do it via their EU bankers whilst we are still technically 'in' and knock it off our final settlement. Job done; triples all round.


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SirWilliam
post Sep 14 2017, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 14 2017, 04:15 PM) *
On the matter of the marbles, given the state of the Greek economy, now would be a good time to offer them a few bob to settle the sale question once and for all. We could do it via their EU bankers whilst we are still technically 'in' and knock it off our final settlement. Job done; triples all round.


Not such a daft idea OTE . Certainly it is something on the table which at the moment seems singularly lacking . cool.gif


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newres
post Sep 15 2017, 06:44 AM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Sep 14 2017, 06:22 PM) *
Not such a daft idea OTE . Certainly it is something on the table which at the moment seems singularly lacking . cool.gif

Why not just give 'em back?
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SirWilliam
post Sep 15 2017, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Sep 15 2017, 07:44 AM) *
Why not just give 'em back?


Which ? Stonehenge or the Parthenon coving ?
Next we will be returning the Moon rocks . rolleyes.gif


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newres
post Sep 15 2017, 11:21 AM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Sep 15 2017, 09:19 AM) *
Which ? Stonehenge or the Parthenon coving ?
Next we will be returning the Moon rocks . rolleyes.gif

They were taken from Greece whilst it was occupied by the Turks. If I'd bought a bit of French property from the Nazis in WW2, should I not feel a moral duty to return it to the people the Nazis took it from?
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SirWilliam
post Sep 15 2017, 11:36 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Sep 15 2017, 12:21 PM) *
They were taken from Greece whilst it was occupied by the Turks. If I'd bought a bit of French property from the Nazis in WW2, should I not feel a moral duty to return it to the people the Nazis took it from?


" Victoribus Spolia " seems in bad taste in today's world but it is a sad reality . I agree that they would probably be better off in a Greek museum but I can't see it happening .


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On the edge
post Sep 15 2017, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Sep 15 2017, 12:21 PM) *
They were taken from Greece whilst it was occupied by the Turks. If I'd bought a bit of French property from the Nazis in WW2, should I not feel a moral duty to return it to the people the Nazis took it from?


Rather different situation; the Marbles were purchased by agreement from a legitimate civil authority in a time of peace. Rather like our dear Government selling off our assets at knock down prices back in the 1980s. Now, there's a thought, perhaps we should be demanding the return of our airports and such like back from their continental owners. laugh.gif


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newres
post Sep 15 2017, 01:30 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 15 2017, 02:07 PM) *
Rather different situation; the Marbles were purchased by agreement from a legitimate civil authority in a time of peace. Rather like our dear Government selling off our assets at knock down prices back in the 1980s. Now, there's a thought, perhaps we should be demanding the return of our airports and such like back from their continental owners. laugh.gif

Well there are a lot of arguments that could be made there, but imagine the British Government selling off Treasures from Northern Ireland during the troubles. "Legitimate" on the face of it, but it would be inappropriate to be selling off treasures (not that I can think of any).

Morally, they should be returned. And the Greeks argue that it wasn't a genuine sale I believe.
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On the edge
post Sep 15 2017, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Sep 15 2017, 02:30 PM) *
Well there are a lot of arguments that could be made there, but imagine the British Government selling off Treasures from Northern Ireland during the troubles. "Legitimate" on the face of it, but it would be inappropriate to be selling off treasures (not that I can think of any).

Morally, they should be returned. And the Greeks argue that it wasn't a genuine sale I believe.


Depends what you mean by 'treasures' of course, I tend to think that a network of very useful pipes which have been running round London for many years a 'national treasure' and should not have been sold to foreign interests. The Indians are calling for the return of the Imperial State Crown which they 'gave' their Emperor at the turn of the last centuary. Presumably the Greeks will be willing to recompense nations disadvantaged when they themselves had imperial designs. So, where does one stop?

If it wasn't a genuine sale, then the Ottoman Empire did have a legal system just as we had. Litigation could have been commenced in either jurisdiction; no one is above the law.....or is it just the decisions they don't like!


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Turin Machine
post Sep 15 2017, 03:20 PM
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Being Welsh I demand that the bluestones be returned. Forthwith. 🐉
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