Councillors reject ‘travellers’ site’ plans despite warnings Options

[Adrian Hollister]

One solution would be to pass legislation that forced all those who promote the concept that the travelers are a special group with separate ethnicity deserving of being luvvied up must give over part of their own property to provide a fixed pitch. Simple, those that defend their "rights" can put their property where their mouth is, never happen though, due to "weaselism".

Perhaps you would be more comfortable rounding up anyone different?

[Adrian Hollister]

I don't think there is an immediate solution. You have two mutually exclusive societies. I do think though that both groups need to raise their game. The criticism of travellers is not without foundation, although I do appreciate they are in a rather no-win situation and their 'life-style' doesn't easily fit in modern Britain.

Agree.

[MoonPhoenix]

If I had a caravan/mobile home, which I don't, and wanted to go on holiday would I expect the local authority to supply me with a place to park it for the duration? Would I have to purchase a site to park it on? Or would I join the caravan club and use and pay for one of their sites or other private sites dotted around the countryfor the duration? Thoughts?

The difference is. That you would have the option of using a holiday site.
And this case is not even about providing local authority pitches.
It's about family wanting to /buy/ and /build/ they're own pitch. At /their/ own expense.
And in the process of doing so. Would relieve WBC from a small part of the financial and logistical burden of provisioning a suitable version of the authority pitches that it should be doing but instead failing its legal obligation to provide culturally appropriate accomodation to a minority group that is simply asking for somewhere /legal/ to live instead of just pitching up on the green and being done with it.

This is something particularly frustrating.... It's people whinging when Travellers park up wherever and ignore the rules. And whinging even louder when they try and do so legally, jumping through all your silly little hoops in the process with perfect precision.

[MoonPhoenix]

And think of the boost to the local economy, gypsy granny whittling clothes pegs from the hedgerow, and growing their own Lucky heather to sell door to door.

Keep it classy.
If you could keep to the issues in hand without trotting out racist stereotypes it would be much appreciated

[Strafin]

This isn't about a site for all gypsies to use though is it? It's about an exclusive site for a particular group.

[Penelope]

Keep it classy.
If you could keep to the issues in hand without trotting out racist stereotypes it would be much appreciated

And there you have it, someone playing the 'racist' card, New it wouldn't be long, they're not a separate race! Sort of cheap trick we've come to expect .

[MoonPhoenix]

This isn't about a site for all gypsies to use though is it? It's about an exclusive site for a particular group.

Pretty much. The way the licenses granted by the planning system work. Is that they can be either a permission for x of y at Z.... Or Named, such that it can be implied that you can have x of y at Z but only for My A and family, etc.

If permission was granted for the 2 trailers + seperate utilities room for toilet/shower/etc ..... Then it would be limited to that.... And then if 3 more show up and decide to stay.... Then the local authority would be as obliged to engage as if you had just built a 2nd garage without permission.

A private pitch for a single family. Just does not esclate to the sort of thing that happened in essex without a /whole decade/ gross incompetence on the part of the council..... Ok, this is West Berks. Their not the shiniest spoons in the draw. But in reality, the things that get out of hand are the rare exceptions. And there are many, many 1 family parcels of land which has never caused an issue its staggering.

Also, I've heard somebody quote recently some figures from I think it was Bristol and somewhere else. That has shown that the cost longterm between providing people somewhere to stop and the repeted cleanup costs and related legal expenses when they dont. are substantial enough to be note worthy in any such discussion. I don't have those figures to hand or where they came from. But will look them up when I get time.

[MoonPhoenix]

I'm also guessing from the name of the applicant that his an actual ethnic Romani. Rather than than the irish varient which you've all seen on no end of tv programmes now.
If your going to have Travellers. The Romani are mostly the most decent and morally upstanding you could ask for.

[Penelope]

I'm also guessing from the name of the applicant that his an actual ethnic Romani. Rather than than the irish varient which you've all seen on no end of tv programmes now.
If your going to have Travellers. The Romani are mostly the most decent and morally upstanding you could ask for.

Fair comment.

[Strafin]

I'm also guessing from the name of the applicant that his an actual ethnic Romani. Rather than than the irish varient which you've all seen on no end of tv programmes now.
If your going to have Travellers. The Romani are mostly the most decent and morally upstanding you could ask for.

Sorry but that's rather racist.

[JeffG]

Sorry but that's rather racist.

Are you suggesting that the Irish are a race?

[Bartholomew]

Are you suggesting that the Irish are a race?

According to the dictionary definition they are a separate race. It surprised me when I looked it up but apparently a race is "any group of persons related by common descent or heredity".

Racism is an emotive overused word that has bad connotations best not used if you want a sensible discussion. Whether we like it or not the discussion is about travellers as a distinct group with its own identity. This is what the discussion about providing facilities for them is about.

[Richard Garvie]

I think our local elected members have to be very careful with the direction we are taking regarding the travelling community. It wasn't too long ago that I stood up and asked Newbury Town Council to issue an apology after the Lib Dems and Tories backed a report from Cllr Pick to call for children in the travelling community to be banned from local schools and other apalling statements.

West Berkshire Council either has a plan for the travelling community or not. If the council officers have advised this scheme be approved, it will likely go through on appeal anyway and refusing at this stage will only incur additional costs for the taxpayer. If the elected members had concerns, they should have raised them when the council policy for the travelling community was prepared to avoid officers saying one thing and the elected members being on the opposit side of the argument. It's called being proactive rather than reactive.

A number of people on this forum are happy to bash the travelling community and think that we should not provide any support to them at all. By not providing facilities and having a plan in place, this is what will lead to illegal camps and settlements appearing, and thus creating a problem that could have been avoided.

[Strafin]

Are you suggesting that the Irish are a race?

No, but if Moonphoenix is going to play the race card in one post, he/she shouldn't follow up with a comment about some countries travellers being better than others.

[MoonPhoenix]

It's less about one being better than the other.
But pointing out that Britains Travellers are comprised of a number of seperate ethnic groups. Which have very different cultures from each other. Have different attitudes, behave differently. Speak differently, their own unique languages even. You get where I'm going here.
Not to mention a whole pile of super complicated politics and rivalrys between them all. And unfortunately, in some cases there is such a deeply ingrained culture of finger pointing and one-up-manship. That people's instinctive 'its not us, its them' attitude just works against them among people who don't understand the cultural basis of these behaviours. Rather then teaming up for a unified don't step on us. We all do it. It's self-defeating. Totally.
Tl;dr A lot of us relate to each other in ways that settled types perceive as totally derogatory to each other. But it's actually jovial and in very good spirits. But it's down to a very different mindset and use of language / self expression. Entirely a weird cultural quirk. Respectful conduct and bahaviour when interacting between each other is extremely important to get right. Stupidly so. Probably the single most important thing to get right..... But you'd proberbly never tell without understanding the dynamic and the typical mindset its comes from. Not sure how else to try and explain that. Think I'll quit while I'm ahead.

I mention the irish particularly. Because that is what most people are familiar with. In Essex & All the recent spate of shocumentary reality distorting tv shows. Actually in all those shows. I don't think I saw one person of the actual ethnicities usually appointed the slur 'gypsy' .... Which is as unrepresentative and falsified as everything else in those shows. Given how such people form a majority of Britains Traveller population. And the Irish are the most insignificant (In the sense of size of population) minority among Travellers.

Mass media likes to present us as a single harmogenous group. But that is no better than claiming the chineese, japanese and koreans are all the same based on some arbitrary measure of appearence.

Personally, the only group I would really loath to live next door to are the New Agers. But not because they are better or worse... Just they are that different in every respect to all the traditional flavours of traveller that it would be like pearing over the fence at something that just landed from another planet. And in ways I'm failing to find a positive way of relating. So will just leave that be before I stoke up a hornets nest

[Biker1]

Personally, the only group I would really loath to live next door to are the New Agers. But not because they are better or worse... Just they are that different in every respect to all the traditional flavours of traveller that it would be like pearing over the fence at something that just landed from another planet. And in ways I'm failing to find a positive way of relating. So will just leave that be before I stoke up a hornets nest

Are "New Agers" a "race" then?
And if so, are you not being "racist" just as I would be in your eyes if I said I didn't want to live next door to Gypsys or "travellers"?

[Jo Pepper]

I've never seen an agressive new ager, but I have seen agressive people from your tribe.

[Biker1]

I've never seen an agressive new ager,

"MoonPhoenix" does not seem to like them. Anyway, who said they were aggressive?

but I have seen agressive people from your tribe.

My Tribe??
Sorry, explain.

[Penelope]

I've never seen an agressive new ager, but I have seen agressive people from your tribe.

Now that's what I call a racist post, still I think I'll let it go.

[Jo Pepper]

"MoonPhoenix" does not seem to like them. Anyway, who said they were aggressive?

My Tribe??
Sorry, explain.

There is this obsession that people fit neatly into categories or tribes that describe them completely. When you insult one tribe you create conflict. Sarcasm from my original comment aside, you can see how the impression is continued. 'Cheese eating surrender monkeys' (bart simpson?) for the French, 'stuck up' for English, 'drunk' for the Irish/Scots, dodgy driveways... etc. Most seem to apply to every tribe in the UK.