Newbury Tpwn Council's milage allowance Options

[Simon Kirby]

I raised this issue in another thread and there appear to be some outstanding issues to discuss. Please feel free to raise them here.

It is my unconfirmed understanding that Town Councillors claim a 60p per mile allowance when they travel in their own car to cover the cost of fuel, wear and tear, insurance, and depreciation. The HMRC tax-free limit for such allowances is 40p per mile. For me this raised two issues which the Town Council have so far been unwilling to engage with:

1. I assume that HMRC considers anything over 40p per mile claimed by a parish councillor to be a taxable gain, and if that is so, being as how it is public money paid to an elected member in their official capacity, I believe the public have a right to know whether members have been declaring that gain for the purposes of income tax.

2. If HMRC consider 40p per mile to be a full recompense for the costs of the journey, I don't agree that Councillors should be making 20p per mile profit at the public expense, and I want the Town Council to pay a mileage allowance at below HMRC's tax-free limit.

The issue has become fractious because I asked a Town Councillor on this board whether he had declared a milage claim. I don't want to make this a personal attack on the councillor who took some offence at the question, and as much as I believe in holding councillors to account I am willing to be held account for my own behaviour, and while I feel I asked a reasonable question I recognise that the Councillor may not have agreed. What I suggest is that the Town Council itemise all of the milage and subsistence claims councillors have made in the current session of the council along with the declarations of those gains made by the councillors to HMRC for tax years up to 2009-2010. If everything tallies I'll donate £100 to a charity of the Councillors' choice. The Council should post the claims and declarations here before the end of March.

[Iommi]

he is one then?

If you read it, I made that accusation conditional.

You can open and deal with letters in the privacy of an office/home etc. Thus when someone makes a crass error in their correspondence they can be put right without exposing their error to public ridicule (as an example, and not referring to any forum thread).
Whacking something on a public media forum is not the way to start or conduct a productive conversation.

I do not know whether Cllr Allen made appropriate expenses claims, or declared 20p a mile to HMRC, but the bullet between the eyes because he did not agree with SK about the allotments was not (for me) likely to be productive. That should have been dealt with separately.

Privacy is usually to protect the constituent, while SK was rude, Cllr could have just said, yes I do, or I'm not prepared to discuss my tax affairs here. The former would have been preferable.

[Simon Kirby]

'The Town Council' has no attitude to criticism, but the people that form it might. Generalising what all must think is unhelpful as it gets up the nose of those who might otherwise agree with you. It also creates a corraling mentality - they herd together in the fear they will be next on the list. 'Say nothing to Kirby; even if you try to help he'll cut your legs off'.

As I remember Cllr Allen came on to talk about the allotment issue. When he was not saying what Richard wanted to hear he was asked about his expenses and tax. Now those are valid questions to ask in an appropriate way, but shooting the messenger does rather close communication links down. We were all deprived of the possibility to hear the other side of the allotment story, after all.

No, it didn't happen like that. It was in a thread discussing the up-coming NTC budget. I raised the issue of milage allowances because there was a substantial claim from Cllr Allen in the accounts and the Council's administrative costs are very high, so I believed the question was in order and on-topic. As it also raised the possibility that Councillors had not been declaring taxable gains made at the public expense I raised that as well.

Cllr Allen has never responded to any correspondence from me on the subject of allotments, though I have mailed him several times in the hope that he might help. Cllr Allen also gave the impression that he was not a member of the Community Services Committee whereas he is a reserve member and was in attendance and voted in favour of the motion on 1 March to not recognise the Wash Common Allotment Society and to not discuss self-management.

[Cognosco]

I raised this issue in another thread and there appear to be some outstanding issues to discuss. Please feel free to raise them here.

It is my unconfirmed understanding that Town Councillors claim a 60p per mile allowance when they travel in their own car to cover the cost of fuel, wear and tear, insurance, and depreciation. The HMRC tax-free limit for such allowances is 40p per mile. For me this raised two issues which the Town Council have so far been unwilling to engage with:

1. I assume that HMRC considers anything over 40p per mile claimed by a parish councillor to be a taxable gain, and if that is so, being as how it is public money paid to an elected member in their official capacity, I believe the public have a right to know whether members have been declaring that gain for the purposes of income tax.

2. If HMRC consider 40p per mile to be a full recompense for the costs of the journey, I don't agree that Councillors should be making 20p per mile profit at the public expense, and I want the Town Council to pay a mileage allowance at below HMRC's tax-free limit.

The issue has become fractious because I asked a Town Councillor on this board whether he had declared a milage claim. I don't want to make this a personal attack on the councillor who took some offence at the question, and as much as I believe in holding councillors to account I am willing to be held account for my own behaviour, and while I feel I asked a reasonable question I recognise that the Councillor may not have agreed. What I suggest is that the Town Council itemise all of the milage and subsistence claims councillors have made in the current session of the council along with the declarations of those gains made by the councillors to HMRC for tax years up to 2009-2010. If everything tallies I'll donate £100 to a charity of the Councillors' choice. The Council should post the claims and declarations here before the end of March.

[Simon Kirby]

They should be open to scrutiny of course.

Our councillors should be as wider representation of the people as possible however if they're submitted to ladish banter and bullying such as Simon's this will exclude some from being "up to the job".

Substantiate your accusations.

[Cognosco]

I raised this issue in another thread and there appear to be some outstanding issues to discuss. Please feel free to raise them here.

It is my unconfirmed understanding that Town Councillors claim a 60p per mile allowance when they travel in their own car to cover the cost of fuel, wear and tear, insurance, and depreciation. The HMRC tax-free limit for such allowances is 40p per mile. For me this raised two issues which the Town Council have so far been unwilling to engage with:

1. I assume that HMRC considers anything over 40p per mile claimed by a parish councillor to be a taxable gain, and if that is so, being as how it is public money paid to an elected member in their official capacity, I believe the public have a right to know whether members have been declaring that gain for the purposes of income tax.

2. If HMRC consider 40p per mile to be a full recompense for the costs of the journey, I don't agree that Councillors should be making 20p per mile profit at the public expense, and I want the Town Council to pay a mileage allowance at below HMRC's tax-free limit.

The issue has become fractious because I asked a Town Councillor on this board whether he had declared a milage claim. I don't want to make this a personal attack on the councillor who took some offence at the question, and as much as I believe in holding councillors to account I am willing to be held account for my own behaviour, and while I feel I asked a reasonable question I recognise that the Councillor may not have agreed. What I suggest is that the Town Council itemise all of the milage and subsistence claims councillors have made in the current session of the council along with the declarations of those gains made by the councillors to HMRC for tax years up to 2009-2010. If everything tallies I'll donate £100 to a charity of the Councillors' choice. The Council should post the claims and declarations here before the end of March.

Sorry Simon the council does not read this forum? According to you know who so no chance of a posting as requested then?

[Richard Garvie]

NWNREADER, how can you say that Cllr Allens expenses was raised because I didn't agree with what he said? Nothing to do with me.

[Simon Kirby]

That's odd, I thought User wanted to talk about milage expense claims, so where is she? Trip trap.

[Cognosco]

That's odd, I thought User wanted to talk about milage expense claims, so where is she? Trip trap.

Bit too near to the bone to talk about expense claims I would have thought for User?
Pretend I am a councillor and I don't read forums on this one I think eh User?

[NWNREADER]

NWNREADER, how can you say that Cllr Allens expenses was raised because I didn't agree with what he said? Nothing to do with me.

dealt with elsewhere. This new thread is confusing me!!!

[NWNREADER]

I raised this issue in another thread and there appear to be some outstanding issues to discuss. Please feel free to raise them here.

It is my unconfirmed understanding that Town Councillors claim a 60p per mile allowance when they travel in their own car to cover the cost of fuel, wear and tear, insurance, and depreciation. The HMRC tax-free limit for such allowances is 40p per mile. For me this raised two issues which the Town Council have so far been unwilling to engage with:

1. I assume that HMRC considers anything over 40p per mile claimed by a parish councillor to be a taxable gain, and if that is so, being as how it is public money paid to an elected member in their official capacity, I believe the public have a right to know whether members have been declaring that gain for the purposes of income tax.

2. If HMRC consider 40p per mile to be a full recompense for the costs of the journey, I don't agree that Councillors should be making 20p per mile profit at the public expense, and I want the Town Council to pay a mileage allowance at below HMRC's tax-free limit.

The issue has become fractious because I asked a Town Councillor on this board whether he had declared a milage claim. I don't want to make this a personal attack on the councillor who took some offence at the question, and as much as I believe in holding councillors to account I am willing to be held account for my own behaviour, and while I feel I asked a reasonable question I recognise that the Councillor may not have agreed. What I suggest is that the Town Council itemise all of the milage and subsistence claims councillors have made in the current session of the council along with the declarations of those gains made by the councillors to HMRC for tax years up to 2009-2010. If everything tallies I'll donate £100 to a charity of the Councillors' choice. The Council should post the claims and declarations here before the end of March.

Simon, you must learn to make your point concise and non-judgemental. That way people will get past the first few lines before switching off.

What is needed here is for NTC constituents to ask the Council formal questions about the mileage allowances (Civil Servants may only claim 25p/mile) and how the 20p taxable element is dealt with. The 60p rate is hardly a profit overall, as most comment I have seen on the topic suggests the cost of operating a car exceeds 80p/mile. The 40p HMRC rate has existed for many years and the cost of running a car has increased hugely since.

Some of what you ask would require an Admin cost that will make your eyes water.....

[Richard Garvie]

dealt with elsewhere. This new thread is confusing me!!!

Yes, I made that comment a while ago now!!! Do keep up

[Iommi]

What is needed here is for NTC constituents to ask the Council formal questions about the mileage allowances (Civil Servants may only claim 25p/mile) and how the 20p taxable element is dealt with. The 60p rate is hardly a profit overall, as most comment I have seen on the topic suggests the cost of operating a car exceeds 80p/mile. The 40p HMRC rate has existed for many years and the cost of running a car has increased hugely since.

That would assume the car is kept for purely council business.

[Cognosco]

Simon, you must learn to make your point concise and non-judgemental. That way people will get past the first few lines before switching off.



Some of what you ask would require an Admin cost that will make your eyes water.....

So questions should not be asked it the cost would be too high?

That brick wall is getting higher by the second it would seem?

[Simon Kirby]

That would assume the car is kept for purely council business.

If you're a councillor with a private car then it seems fair that you can claim a reasonable fuel rate, and something for the wear and tear and depreciation. I don't see you need to claim for the insurance and tax as you'd have to pay for them yourself. My volvo does 55 mile to the gallon on a run, so I'd say 11p per mile fule is fair. Say you do an average 12,000 miles in the year and your car depreciates £2,000 in the year, so that's 17p per mile. And what's a service cost - £500? That's another 4p per mile. That's a total of 32p per mile.

So let them claim 32p per mile.

[NWNREADER]

That would assume the car is kept for purely council business.

Not at all. The costs are the same whatever the vehicle is used for. The fixed cost element reduces as the mileage increases, but the overall costs for running a vehicle are more usually around/over £1/mile

[Iommi]

Not at all. The costs are the same whatever the vehicle is used for. The fixed cost element reduces as the mileage increases, but the overall costs for running a vehicle are more usually around/over £1/mile

Yes, but the car is used for private reasons as well, so the rate allows for that. I'd be happy to get 40p a mile. But the generosity drops, the more business mileage you do. Where I used to work, it was sometimes cheaper to hire a car and pay for petrol for some business trips around the country.

[NWNREADER]

car costs

Have a play - it will shock you!!!

I was involved with a project about this issue a few years back and the real costs were surprising then.

[NWNREADER]

Yes, but the car is used for private reasons as well, so the rate allows for that. I'd be happy to get 40p a mile. But the generosity drops, the more business mileage you do. Where I used to work, it was sometimes cheaper to hire a car and pay for petrol for some business trips around the country.

If you have to own a car to use for work, the reduction in cost because you own it anyway is less than a total free choice election. That is why employers offer lease cars.

[Simon Kirby]

Simon, you must learn to make your point concise and non-judgemental. That way people will get past the first few lines before switching off.

What is needed here is for NTC constituents to ask the Council formal questions about the mileage allowances (Civil Servants may only claim 25p/mile) and how the 20p taxable element is dealt with. The 60p rate is hardly a profit overall, as most comment I have seen on the topic suggests the cost of operating a car exceeds 80p/mile. The 40p HMRC rate has existed for many years and the cost of running a car has increased hugely since.

Some of what you ask would require an Admin cost that will make your eyes water.....

Perhaps you're forgetting that I have used that route already. I spoke to the Council privately about the Unfair Terms Regulations 18 months ago, and I was threatened that if I raised it I would "lose support at the Council". I don't like be threatened, and I don't like that the Council chose to ignore this statutory piece of consumer protection legislation.

Anywho, I did write again privately to the Chief Executive, and again privately and respectfully to Clls Swift-Hook, Sheldon, and Johnson laying out the Regualtions and the need for notice. They ignored me. Not even an acknowledgement.

They set the 47% rent increase anyway, so the Society asked a question at Committee asking the Council to suspend the increase pending consideration of the lawfulness. They declined, and the Society reported the matter to Trading Standards who upheld the complaint.

But the Council continued to insist that I pay what they had tacitly acknowledged was an unenforceable rent increase.

I wrote a letter to the Newbury Weekly News.

The Council passed a resolution on March 1 not to recognise the Wash Common Allotment Society because as Cllr Sheldon so delicately put it "I had slagged the Council off in the press".

I asked a question at a Council meetings encouraging the Council to discuss self-management and exposing the cost of the Council's in-house management, and the Council declared me to be a Vexatious Complainant.

As a Vexatious Complainant the Council will not engage in any discussion with me, and so a public forum is a legitimate first-resort.

I intend holding the Town Council to account for their behaviour. It's unfortunate if my manner alienates people, and for what it's worth I really am making an effort, but I'm still going to hold them to account, and while the Council declines to engage they just make it all the worse for themselves.