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Posted by: newres Oct 14 2017, 08:42 AM

We stayed in a hotel in Bristol overnight and most of the staff were white non UK citizens. It occurred to me that if we opted out of the freedom of movement would we get that labour from the commonwealth and I wondered how the "take back control" folk would feel about that?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 14 2017, 11:12 AM

Perhaps wages would rise for locals to take the jobs and Mr and Mrs newres may have to pay an extra 20 quid to stay the night. Would that be a problem for poor diddums?

PS Interesting you say that most of the staff were non white UK citizens? How do you know? Did you see some passports??

Posted by: newres Oct 14 2017, 12:53 PM

I made an error in my post made on an iPhone so hard to check before posting. Corrected.

I take your point about increasing wages, but we don't really have unemployed people to replace them. We will have a labour shortage. I just wondered how people would feel if they will be happier with non white replacements. I rather suspect not.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 14 2017, 01:10 PM

I still can't get my head round the fact that we pay people to stay at home at the same time "encourage" those from Eastern Europe to take up positions some menial some skilled . Pre minimum wage days I could understand it , but now ? While we are on the subject , how much money goes out of the Country to support those family members who are still back in Romania or wherever ?
Don't get me wrong , I am not one of the "send 'm home " brigade , just interested in the thought process that got us to this point , and more importantly , how is it going to end ?

Posted by: The Hatter Oct 14 2017, 02:42 PM

The bosses might end up being paid fairer wages too which will reduce prices. I think the biggest problem will be with nurses and doctors. No one is worried about where people come from if they are here doing a job.

Posted by: newres Oct 14 2017, 03:40 PM

I don't think that's right. I haven't seen figures but I doubt many here under freedom of movement are unemployed.

Posted by: newres Oct 14 2017, 04:04 PM

Who do we pay to stay at home? We have virtually full employment. Our economy and our infrastructure is dependent upon immigrants. The same people moaning that the NHS is swamped with immigrants and we can't see a doctor would be moaning that they can't get the care they need because there's not enough doctors, nurses and ancillary staff. We need them.

Posted by: The Hatter Oct 14 2017, 04:55 PM

There was a late news programme about it recently. We haven't been training anywhere near enough people for the NHS for a long time due to cuts and a bad way of training. They also said we have relied on NHS staff from the Cimmonwealth since the 1960s.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 14 2017, 07:32 PM

Only goes to show that political incompetence is nothing new .

Posted by: newres Oct 14 2017, 08:34 PM

The point is that we need the immigrants here. We don't have unemployment so we won't be able to fill the jobs if we stop EU citizens coming. That will mean more immigration from the commonwealth. In other words more brown faces. Not what Farage had in mind.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 14 2017, 10:29 PM

Dont worry. Be plenty of unemployment post brexit according to the remainers.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 15 2017, 08:38 AM

On a practical note , why is preordained that we have to have borders and tariffs between us and the European mainland ? Surely a "quid pro quo " approach with , say Belgium , ( Forget France ) , would work , or is it as one suspects an affront to the federalists ? Seems to me that we are all being lead by those who think they know best as opposed to actually knowing so.

Posted by: newres Oct 15 2017, 08:40 AM

All good then. As long as we've "taken back control".

Posted by: blackdog Oct 15 2017, 09:44 AM

I fear that your practical approach is impractical. All member states of the EU have to apply the same border controls on trade in order not to have the rest put up border controls around them. It's how the customs zone works, one set of customs for all. And, of course, Belgium cannot make a trade deal with us without breaking their agreement with the EU, in effect leaving the EU.

We are being led by a bunch who either believe that the EU will cave and give us what we want or don't give a toss and believe we will be fine with WTO tariffs. The possibility that the EU might not cave is beginning to sink in with with the first lot and the others still don't give a toss.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 15 2017, 10:19 AM

Now you're getting the idea! Well done you.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 15 2017, 10:22 AM

And with Mutti being the sticking point and with German car makers already starting to worry and put pressure on her it won't be long before the cracks appear in the fortress Europe. Stop worrying, sit back, enjoy the new freedoms.

Posted by: Mr Brown Oct 15 2017, 10:45 AM

Not sure enjoy is the right word; outlook is bleak any which way you look at it. It's become pretty clear that we won't find it easy on our own. It's also very clear to most that 'exit from Brexit' would come at a cost too. Perhaps there was a modicum of enjoyment having a last drink in the first class bar if the Titanic!

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 15 2017, 11:11 AM

When all else fails we are safe in the knowledge that Iran will soon have the capability of destroying half of Europe anyway. Instead of worrying about the lifeboats maybe it would be advisable to avoid icebergs in the first place .

Posted by: Mr Brown Oct 15 2017, 12:04 PM

Trouble is Sir W, we've hit it already. If we'd got the design right in the first place, the Titanic might not have gone down, spot any similarity?

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 15 2017, 05:17 PM

Well they do say history repeats itself .

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 15 2017, 05:48 PM

It will... And once we have left Europe to its own devices they will end up at war with one another. It is the European DNA.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 15 2017, 07:06 PM

If that's true, I'm SO getting a dinosaur!!

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 15 2017, 07:16 PM

Be careful what you wish for . When Homo Sapien eventually wears his welcome out on planet Earth , something has to take over top dog spot . Personally I have always had a soft spot for Triceratops .

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 15 2017, 07:48 PM

Nah... AI will be the end of us all... I should know. I'm helping!!! The borg is not far away.

Posted by: Biker1 Oct 16 2017, 07:35 AM

What 1.5 Million?

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 16 2017, 08:09 AM

Just a figure they use to fill a gap on page 49 . Doesn't actually mean there are 1.5 million on the dole . Have faith

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 16 2017, 09:16 AM

Just happened on this little straw poll , and this is West Berks not the northern wastelands .

http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/poll/poll/22518/would-you-rather-have-theresa-may-or-boris-johnson-as-pm.html

Posted by: newres Oct 16 2017, 02:59 PM

Unemployment is 4.3%. Many of those will be "between" jobs and some will be long term unemployed, but in modern society that's effectively full employment. Besides there's over 2m EU citizens working here.

Posted by: newres Oct 16 2017, 03:00 PM

More than half voted for neither of them. Worrying for the Tories.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 16 2017, 05:47 PM

Not really. You could put Harvey Weinstein as a candidate for the Conservatives in Newbury and he'd probably get in..

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 16 2017, 06:35 PM

Not only that, swivel-eyeds tend not to involve themselves in polls like this.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 16 2017, 06:47 PM

Source??

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 16 2017, 06:48 PM

I'd vote for him, think of the parties!.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 16 2017, 07:24 PM

Evidently Tories win Newbury elections by a wide margin yet little polls like the subject show a different view.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 16 2017, 07:25 PM

QED

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 16 2017, 09:54 PM

Gibberish.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 17 2017, 07:16 AM

I wish it were.

Posted by: Biker1 Oct 17 2017, 08:14 AM

Yes 1.484 Million! https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/16/uk-pay-growth-unemployment-earnings-inflation
Plus, please note, the figure falls again post Brexit vote !!

Wow, frightening!

Posted by: newres Oct 17 2017, 12:15 PM

If they all leave we are going to have a dire labour shortage. Ofcourse the point is that one way or another immigration will stay the same.

Posted by: newres Oct 17 2017, 12:34 PM

Inflation at its highest now for 5 years. Winter is coming!

Posted by: Turin Machine Oct 17 2017, 12:41 PM

Good Oh! Start getting some returns on investments at last. And pension to rise by 3%. Good times a coming.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 17 2017, 01:58 PM

Why ? The yoof's of our inner cities are endeavouring to fill the gap as we speak . Obviously it will take a year or two before they are old enough to enter the work place . Seriously though , when the labour force numbers drop those left will benefit through the supply and demand principal . If that 1.5 million drawers of unemployment payment enter the workplace then everyone benefits .
Low pay is better than no pay .

Posted by: blackdog Oct 17 2017, 04:05 PM

The poll says nothing about which party folk would vote for - many/most of those voting 'neither' will still put their X alongside Benyon at the next election.

Posted by: newres Oct 17 2017, 04:54 PM

That figure is illusory. Many of those will be "between" jobs and many will be long term unemployed. There isn't actually a pool of 1.5 million waiting. Effectively we have full employment. Difficult though it is for you folk to grasp.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 17 2017, 05:29 PM

Next time I visit Liverpool I will show them your post . No doubt they will be so impressed they may even let me leave unmolested .

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 17 2017, 06:47 PM

😂 Some are so anti brexit its akin to a religion. I see the good old Austrians are deviating back to the norm. And Poland and Hungary are not happy. And the French President is already unpopular. And Merkel has a much reduced power base. Oh and the Spanish now have "political prisoners". Better ban spanish wine and fruit methinks. Oh and only go on holiday to Catalonia. After all, its the right thing to do.😂

Posted by: Turin Machine Oct 17 2017, 08:39 PM

I'll book some seats on the next rofl copter out there

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 18 2017, 09:59 AM

The world needs deviant Austrians , Sometimes I think it is best just to take an ambivalent view on the whole thing in the knowledge that life , hopefully , goes on . I still stand by my take that the European Union in it's present and proposed federalist future will not exist in 20 years time . ( Doubt I will either ) We will trade with those who have / want what we need / market and ignore the rest .
It is the nanny state syndrome that is tying us to the status quo . Bit like trying to wean a petulant child off the maternal breast , the longer it goes on the less inclined they are to adapt to proper food .
Personally I wouldn't holiday anywhere that I wasn't welcomed , and that is most of world .

Posted by: newres Oct 18 2017, 11:44 AM

Without wishing to stereotype, judging by your views you won't be around in 20 years to find out whether you were right!

Unemployment today at its lowest for 40 years. Where are we going to get 2m people from to replace the EU citizens?

Posted by: The Hatter Oct 18 2017, 01:05 PM

The government has already said some of them will stay and they've been promised a residency scheme if they do. UK might not need that number anyway as there will be less people to service. There is also a growing number of under 18 year olds that will want to go into the workforce rather than be made to stay in at school. The rise in the pension age means a lot more older people will want to stay in jobs.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 18 2017, 02:13 PM

Economist yesterday explaining why wages are low said that its because productivity is so low. So, work harder boys, get better wages and, we won't NEED so many workers. Not rocket science.

Posted by: newres Oct 18 2017, 02:20 PM

Do you mean an economist was giving his opinion? We've all got one, but facts speak for themselves. We will still need immigrants to do the work.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 18 2017, 02:29 PM

Work harder, get better wages, get better jobs and ignore the jobs that pay peanuts (although are jobs that need doing).

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 18 2017, 02:45 PM

Rather listen to the opinion of a respected professional in the subject thanks.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 18 2017, 04:13 PM

If you need proof of that viewpoint have you ever observed road workers ? One man digs/repairs the hole , two observe from a respectable distance and the foreman has a mobile glued to his ear . Now before the highways agency employees declare a fatwa on my life I am sure the same applies to other disciplines .
Someone , can't recall who , the other day cited the British worker as lazy compared with their European contemporaries .Now that is a simplistic statement as those who are willing to trek over half a continent to earn a living are hardly likely to be slouches but it does ask a few searching questions of the British ethos .

Posted by: newres Oct 18 2017, 04:22 PM

Experts.. what do they know.

Posted by: newres Oct 18 2017, 04:23 PM

And yet you want to ship home the hard working Europeans!

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 18 2017, 04:54 PM

Where has anyone said on this forum that they want to ship home hard working Europeans? Feckless, criminal, benefit and health tourist europeans yes. Hard working. No.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 18 2017, 05:59 PM

There is a school of thought that proposes that two people can read the same sentence and interpret it completely differently to what the author intended .
Personally I just think it's all based on the reader's bias .

Posted by: newres Oct 18 2017, 06:01 PM

Do you have statistics on the numbers of these? Every European I come across is as described above by the elderly Sir William - hard working. There is an enormous benefit to the country in taxes from having them here. Think you've been drinking again.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 18 2017, 06:16 PM

Its ok. 3.6 million EU nationals are here. 2.1 million work. That means 1.5 million dont. If they all leave the housing crisis is solved!!! Eureka.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-citizens-living-uk/

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 18 2017, 07:03 PM

Not a total benefit , yes they pay tax but they also send an element of their income back home which in turn is spent there . My argument is, ( I will try to keep it simple ), why are we both encouraging and relying on imported labour when we have 1.5 million drawing unemployment benefit ? Yes there is a demographic problem and an education system that is still overseeing school leavers who can not write their own name let alone enter the work place . Yes more are going to university, but what use is that to a plumber/ train driver/ hairdresser ? ( No disrespect intended ) .
Any employer worth his salt will take on the best candidate that sits across from his desk on the day . Not at all interested in where he comes from or what he does with his wages . The last migrant worker I spoke to , ( chap from Poland ) , was a qualified heating engineer stacking shelves in Sainsburys who had had enough and was heading back to Warsaw .
Lot has been said about apprenticeships , both old and new , but what use is that if the only local workplace is a fast food outlet ? I am a little reluctant to suggest yet another quango to correlate the needs of the labour pool and those of industry but a bit of joined up thinking would not go amiss .

Posted by: newres Oct 18 2017, 08:12 PM

Nope, you either aren't very bright (that's where my money is) or you are deliberately obfuscating (Google it).

"About 81% of working age EU citizens in the UK were in work in spring this year, compared to around 75% of UK nationals" My italics.

The others are likely to be dependents and supported by the person in work. Some will be students as well. Ofcourse and as it's only a snapshot, it's likely that some will have been between jobs on the day the snapshot was taken.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 18 2017, 08:32 PM

Insults. The last thing a liberal dotart like you has when you can't admit being wrong. Soo.. How many is 19% of 2.1 million? Can you work it out? Can you? Yes thats right approximately 400000 EU citizens of WORKING age are out of work and no doubt claiming benefits. Well done newres. I never knew it was that many. You just hardened my position now to a bit more anti EU.😂

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 18 2017, 09:08 PM

That sweet sweet smell of Libtard remoaners.

Posted by: newres Oct 19 2017, 02:49 AM

Without doubt some will be claiming benefits, but many won't. Many will be wives/partners and being supported by their working partner, some will be students and some will be between jobs on the day the snapshot was taken.

Just admit it. You don't like foreigners. My point is that if we leave the EU (I think as time goes on it's becoming more apparent it's economic suicide) many of those white faces will be brown as we recruit from the commonwealth.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 19 2017, 05:04 AM

Just admit it. You hate white English people. Im not even going to bother responding to your accusation of xenophobia / racism. It's pathetic. As for your economic suicide argument, it is possible that we may encounter a slight downturn in fortune in the short term whilst things recalibrate. Personally its something I and many brexiteers had already factored in when making our decision to leave. Not to leave would be an affront to democracy. But then people like you don't seem to like democracy unless the people make the decison you want.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 19 2017, 08:23 AM

" There is nowt as blind as those who have no wish to see " Everyone is entitled to their point of view , but to personally attack the intellect of someone who does not share your opinions is a bit below the belt .
If the state support of migrant "workers" was not an issue why was it not firmly put to bed by the treasury years ago ? No ; it is an issue and one that has to be addressed very soon , however unpalatable some may find it .

Posted by: Mr Brown Oct 19 2017, 09:20 AM

So far, no one has factored in what Mark Carney Governor of the Bank of England said a few weeks back; technology will be taking over vast numbers of low level jobs very quickly now. He's concerned that the number of jobs avaliable will be hugely reduced and as a consequence unemployment will again become the main issue. We shouldn't worry about immigrants; they'll be off. So, nothing to do with Brexit, just the onward march of technology.

As if to underline this, albeit using existing methods and processes, Sainsbury's have made a start. Centralised and automated functions replacing a large number of jobs.

Posted by: dannyboy Oct 19 2017, 09:39 AM

Only if entitled to them.



I don't work & nor do I claim benefits. I'm sure others do the same. My mother has never worked a day in her life.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 19 2017, 09:40 AM

Those with the work ethic will , undoubtedly , be off to pastures new . The problem is those who have neither the drive nor Country to return to will find themselves in our social welfare system . Rather debatable as to how much technology will change the working environment , supermarket checkouts yes , house builders no . All about the Country , ( wherever it is ) , being able to support it's population . Once an area becomes overpopulated in terms of people equal to the number of houses/jobs/medical facilities etc then cracks start to appear . Then the nationalists raise their banner and off we go again . History repeats and continues to do so .

Posted by: newres Oct 19 2017, 12:17 PM

If it was such an issue, why weren't figures published by Farage in the campaign? He may not have needed to resort to lies to get people behind his anti immigration stance.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 19 2017, 02:16 PM

One of the biggest myths of the referendum was that the likes of Farage / Johnson / Grove et al had any real influence on peoples voting , though Osborne did his best . I don't know what was bandied about because I turned the media off when confronted but I am sure it was used somewhere .
Anyway that is no longer relevant , as is remaining a member of the federalist club . What is up for grabs is what happens next and included in the list is a decent standard of living for EVERYONE who lives and works in this Country .

Posted by: Mr Brown Oct 19 2017, 03:28 PM

Having worked in various other countries, the U.K. welfare system, though undoubtedly good, is not the big magnet many think it to be. The biggest draw is language, English; simply because of the Americanisation of the west. If you just want looking after, Germany is the place to go. Ironically, immigrants are necessarily those with the 'get up and go' who move on looking for a better life, in terms of more money, not doles. So, they are likely to be the first out. For those without drive or initiative, though this hurts, look at the indigenous disaffected youth.

Most of us think technological change as computers, iPhones and the like. It's consequence though is far greater. Not only office / retail / administration but every aspect of life. One very small example; the advent of plastic plumbing. This gives building developers the opportunity to de-skill and make much faster traditional metal plumbing tasks. Simplistically, iPhone instructions tell the operator what to do and the stuff to do it is easily transported, cut and fixed with no specialist training or tools. Job done faster with much cheaper labour and that's just one very small example.

History indeed repeats itself; exactly what happened as the industrial revolution developed.

Posted by: Biker1 Oct 19 2017, 05:18 PM

Yes it is!

So all those waiting in Calais and now Bilbao who have travelled through several friendly countries are trying to get here because we speak the preferred language of English?

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 19 2017, 05:22 PM

A measured and articulate advocacy . One can only speculate where this will end but I surmise we are at the start of the evolution as opposed to the end.

Posted by: newres Oct 19 2017, 06:05 PM

We continually evolve and as a consequence in the UK we've become primarily a service based society. Each change brings about consequences. For example the online revolution means less retail space, but more leisure time. So the jobs in retail become delivery jobs and baristas! There are still plenty of jobs. They are just different jobs and as you say often less skill is needed.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 19 2017, 06:49 PM

Could you explain to the uninitiated how having more leisure time is of advantage to someone on the minimum wage ? There may well be more jobs at the lower end of the market but don't you think they would be happier if they at least had some disposable income ?

Posted by: newres Oct 19 2017, 07:04 PM

Where did I say it was an advantage?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 19 2017, 10:13 PM

Interesting article on SKY tonight where they interviewed some of the one million (estimated) illegal immigrants working on mostly slave wages. They see Brexit as a huge opportunity for them to gain UK citizenship and for them to stop being exploited. The group that were speaking were Tamils and living in a garage. Funny old world....I'd say we owe more historically to the old empire than the modern day EU. I'd like to see more brown faces from India and Sri Lanka etc than white ones from Eastern Europe. Just a personal choice and I love a good Diwali celebration.

Posted by: newres Oct 20 2017, 06:39 AM

Sure. I somehow reckon if there were as many brown faces in Newbury as there are Eastern Europeans you'd change your tune. Remember many of them would be Muslims.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 20 2017, 10:44 AM

You are evenly balanced. A chip on both shoulders. You don't know me chap.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 20 2017, 12:06 PM

Once more the platform of debate descends into a bear pit . Very few people are xenophobic / racist / bigot etc but it seems when someone is losing the argument it is an easy tool to use .
It is individuals that push the boundaries of acceptance , not their colour / religion / education , but it is a very convenient box for the purpose of expression .

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 20 2017, 06:09 PM

Quite. Newres can't bear the thought of anyone with independent thought. My way or the highway. The "momentum" way. Unless you are part of the "colllective" you are ostricised and lampooned as being a bigot and racist.

Posted by: newres Oct 20 2017, 06:16 PM

Hold on a second, not so long ago you were bemoaning the demise of non whites in London, yet you expect us to accept you'd like to see more brown faces in Newbury.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 20 2017, 06:19 PM

I don't think any city should become a ghetto where integration between races ceases. Its not good for society.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 20 2017, 06:47 PM

Why?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 20 2017, 07:10 PM

Because if you get 1000000 white, brown, or black people living together without any exposure to other races and ways of thinking it leads to intolerance. A bit like walking into one of those village pubs when you are a stranger in the village...

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 20 2017, 07:13 PM

You also seem to confuse race and religion. They blur in your thinking. They are very very different things.

Posted by: newres Oct 20 2017, 08:16 PM

Care to elucidate?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 20 2017, 08:36 PM

Just because you dont like religion OF ANY KIND because you know it has caused more wars and killed more people than anything else that man has "invented" does not make you a bigot or indeed racist.

But hey... You believe what you want.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 21 2017, 03:29 AM

Both are forms of prejudice and these days people with a hatred of religious groups are regarded in the same way as racists.

If religion is guilty as charged (I’m not sure you are correct) then I suspect money, another man made construct, comes a close second!

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 21 2017, 03:33 AM

Your exposure to religion seems to have fuelled an intolerance to religion? Perhaps exposure doesn’t guarantee understanding?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 05:20 AM

Disliking the idea of a sky fairy and all the nonsense around it is logical. I only "hate" those religous zealots that expect others to conform to their own views. Any other people are welcome to believe in anything they want to!!!

Posted by: The Hatter Oct 21 2017, 05:42 AM

Stalinisim, National Socialisim, Korean Presidential, etc.etc.are all just as vile, oppressive regimes keep rising up. Might even be seen with the hatred that has been generated the groups in the last referendum. On what is supposed to be a serious local Facebook page some very nasty comments were being made about leavers and how the poster actually hated them. It all seems to start when people can't cope with differences.

Posted by: newres Oct 21 2017, 06:26 AM

I hope you're not referring to me. I work with a leaver who works hard and I actually like.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 06:48 AM

Pull the other one. You have a pathological hatred of anyone who does not conform to your world view. I feel sorry for your colleague. I bet you spend all day telling him he is a thick racist bigot. He or she probably despises you.

Posted by: newres Oct 21 2017, 09:37 AM

So what do you want then? You say you'd like more brown faces but not as many as London. Shall we ship a load of them to Newbury so that they are evenly balanced? You're comedy gold.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 21 2017, 10:42 AM

I would imagine some religions generate more emotion than others, but almost all people I’ve worked with, despite their personal beliefs, are like normal people. I think many people treat culture and heritage as an obligation and religion is no exception.

However, I think religion covers more than a supernatural belief system. One example I have come to resent is Americans infatuation with the amendments and the flag. People are quite prepared to do things or accept things simply because, to quote a Python film: it is written.

I feel some people treat politics like religion. Conservatism, liberalism, socialism, etc, all have their myopic obedient servants.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 11:02 AM

Yawn. Pub bore. What an odious self serving narcissist you are. I bet you look in the mirror and blow kisses. The words toss and pot come to mind.😂

Posted by: newres Oct 21 2017, 11:34 AM

Abuse is the last refuge of the idiot.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 11:42 AM

You just called yourself an idiot.😂😂😂 Thats how stupid you are.

Posted by: newres Oct 21 2017, 12:01 PM

There's a difference between questioning someone's intellect and abuse.

Abuse: "What an odious self serving narcissist you are. I bet you look in the mirror and blow kisses. The words toss and pot come to mind.😂"

As I said, last refuge of the not very intelligent (idiot).

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 21 2017, 12:09 PM

Or the impatient.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 21 2017, 12:52 PM

And the libtards.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 12:55 PM

The thing is newres you are to me just an annoyance. Something to be played with. Entertainment. Im happy earning more in a year than you probably earn in 10. Just for fun tell me what your made up job title is? 😂

Posted by: newres Oct 21 2017, 01:42 PM

MD. Not that it matters.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 01:45 PM

Of what? FTSE100? 😂😂

Posted by: newres Oct 21 2017, 01:47 PM

If you tell us who you are, I'll happily do the same.

What level are you educated to? Probably more important in having a worthwhile view.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 01:53 PM

Masters. Not that it matters. Some of the most intelligent people I know left school at 16. I'm currently working with Redmond (thats the MS campus in the US as you probably wouldn't know) on new technology. You? What's your claim to fame? MD of a one man band?

Posted by: newres Oct 21 2017, 02:08 PM

You really don't come across as educated. Sounds like you have a diploma in IT. English and Philosophy joint honours degree.

If I revealed my company it would reveal who I am, but including me there are 4 full time employees and two part time. It's a very down to earth business, but it turns over a fair bit and growing at 20% a year. I couldn't justify a Range Rover Sport, but I could afford one I suppose. Still have a large mortgage. It's all irrelevant and I wonder why you brought it up?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 02:17 PM

Because you think that anyone who doesn't agree with you must be stupid. I have had major disagreements with people who are very intelligent. Just because I don't agree with them does not mean I try and belittle them by questioning intelligence. You do. As Trump would say. Sad!!

Posted by: newres Oct 21 2017, 02:39 PM

So you feel so insecure that you need to talk about how much money you earn. Sad.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 03:01 PM

Dotard Sad. . You are the past my adversary. Your views are no longer relevant. Time to get your pipe and slippers.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 21 2017, 08:50 PM

Sounds like a draw so far; not seen the knockout punch yet.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 21 2017, 09:57 PM

😂😂😂

Posted by: newres Oct 22 2017, 08:17 AM

The knockout punch will come when TDH or his parents or children need the NHS and he can't get an appointment because of the manpower crisis we'd have if we stopped immigrants working here. Never mind his Amazon Prime account.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 22 2017, 08:55 AM

I have Private Medical Insurance. Thanks for the concern though!😂

Posted by: newres Oct 22 2017, 10:21 AM

Alright for your prostate examination, but wouldn't be much use in a car crash.

Posted by: newres Oct 22 2017, 10:23 AM

(Dup)

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 22 2017, 11:14 AM

When you lose a parent to a car crash and you get to the hospital to be told both your parents are in resus its not nice. Though they couldn't do anything for him anyway. I hope nothing similar happens to you.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 22 2017, 11:26 AM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T8XeDvKqI4E

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 22 2017, 12:04 PM

I think his point is private don’t do AnE.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 22 2017, 12:07 PM

Yeo. But he is so fooking depressing. Cup is empty not even half full. He reminds me of Private Fraser. Doooomed. We are all doomed.... Get a grip.

Posted by: newres Oct 22 2017, 01:16 PM

It's not me that's terrified of everything. Scared of Muslims, terrorism, immigrants, the EU etc. You seem to imply that because you're working with or for Microsoft it makes you savvy, yet the vast majority of business leaders reckon it's suicide.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 22 2017, 01:53 PM

I'm not scared of any of those things pal. Wanting what is in your belief right for the country does not make you scared. Go crawl back under the rock you came from you odious sanctimonius piece of scum. Hope your sh1tty little company fails when we leave the EU and you lose your house.

Posted by: newres Oct 22 2017, 02:14 PM

Abuse again. Unfortunately an IT NVQ from Newbury College doesn't give you the ability to debate intelligently or vote in complex issues.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 22 2017, 02:35 PM

Nor does being the "Managing Director" of a sad little one man band.
Do you pay minimum wage? It juat shows you how arrogant you are. You actually believe people shouldn't vote on "complex" issues as you put them because they don't agree with you!!! Sums you up. Been fun but have work to do. One piece of advice before I go. If you dislike it here so much please emmigrate. You'd be doing us all a favour.😂

Posted by: newres Oct 22 2017, 04:02 PM

No, £14.50 an hour. Did you mean "emigrate"?

I believe people shouldn't vote on things they don't understand and I don't believe that decisions about business (which is what Brexit is) should be taken on anything but pragmatic grounds. Nationalism shouldn't come into it.

Incidentally, before my current business I spent 20 years in IT sales negotiating up to £750,000 deals with blue chip organisations including BP, British Gas, ICL, Unisys, IBM so I know more than you think about your industry but I guess I'm a little out of touch now.

Posted by: Mr Brown Oct 22 2017, 04:21 PM

Regrettably, the EU and so consequently Brexit was never just about commerce. If it was, then the last fourty or so years would have been about trying to include the rest of the world into the 'Free Market'. EU is much more about trying to create a single federal state. We should now concentrate on the future, the World market.

As to what is really a side issue, immigration and the NHS, please understand that even NHS management experts are starting to recognise; the shortage of Nurses was created by a badly constructed programme called Nurse 2000; in other words an own goal, nothing to do with Brexit.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 22 2017, 04:31 PM

Does not compute in Newres world. PS the saddo may criticise you for "fourty"... After all if you can't proof read every post you must be thick.

Posted by: newres Oct 22 2017, 04:39 PM

I totally agree that immigration is a side issue. Unfortunately for many people it became THE issue.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 22 2017, 04:40 PM

750k is very small beer. Sad!

Posted by: newres Oct 22 2017, 05:10 PM

Not when you're on 8% commission.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 22 2017, 06:48 PM

Most Sales people are odious creatures. When you have sat through tender after tender its quite easy to spot the cack. I bet you were all bells and whistles and no substance. Some poor saps get taken in. I guess thats where you made your grubby 8%.

Posted by: newres Oct 22 2017, 07:10 PM

Yeah there’s always mugs to sort it out. I just drove away in my brand new 530 and left it for the IT clerks.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 22 2017, 07:22 PM

Probably more than an ounce of truth in that. Sad! I presume you got fired or paid off to leave when they found you out. What business line are you in now? Second hand cars? Something dodgy I expect...

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 22 2017, 09:28 PM

With perception like that TDH, I suggest you could make a healthy living reading palms!

Posted by: The Hatter Oct 23 2017, 08:04 AM

Shouldn't our future mantra be to make every challenge is an opportunity? If we have lots of immigrants, why not try and work out how best we can use them or we might be throwing out useful assets. It would also be a more productive use of senior managers brains than simply knocking spots off each other.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 23 2017, 06:41 PM

I missed this the first time round; made I larf:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2095549/Right-wingers-intelligent-left-wingers-says-controversial-study--conservative-politics-lead-people-racist.html

* Children with low intelligence grow up to be prejudiced
* Right-wing views make the less intelligent feel 'safe'
* Analysis of more than 15,000 people

“Crucially, people's educational level is not what determines whether they are racist or not - it's innate intelligence, according to the academics.”

Posted by: newres Oct 23 2017, 07:11 PM

I called it!

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 23 2017, 07:29 PM

Actually several articles are freely available that disproves this.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2952510

But hey its a free Country. You carry on with your ridiculous "beliefs".😂

Posted by: newres Oct 23 2017, 07:50 PM

Different (thus proving the first link’s point).

Amusing though that the The Mail calls its own readers thick.

Posted by: Turin Machine Oct 23 2017, 08:44 PM

Ahem!

Kipling wrote
"I knew six honest serving men, they taught me all I knew
There names were what and why and where and how and when and who."


Excellent advice when reading reports of any kind.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 23 2017, 08:52 PM

See you on the flipside
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/anti-tabloid-snobs-real-bigots/

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 23 2017, 09:25 PM

No No. Its only the liberal truth that counts. All other articles are #fakenews... 😂

Catalonia, Poland, Hungary, Austria.... The times they are a changing... And some liberals are so scared of "change" they are literally newresing the very pants they own.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 23 2017, 11:15 PM

Another report on a scientific study: https://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 23 2017, 11:22 PM

See that and raise you this.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-sachs-psyd/10-ways-white-liberals-pe_b_8068136.html

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 23 2017, 11:43 PM

Crickey, this place really is full of dumbarses!

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/were-only-human/is-racism-just-a-form-of-stupidity.html

The empirical evidence supports this link, too. Low intelligence and “low effort thinking” are strongly linked to right-wing attitudes, including authoritarianism and conservative politics. And again, there appears to be a demonstrable causal link: Studies have found, for example, that children with poor mental skills grow up to be strongly right-wing adults.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 23 2017, 11:48 PM

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/if-liberals-are-more-intelligent-conservatives-why-are

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 23 2017, 11:51 PM

Even those who can't spell 'crikey', dumbarse!

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 23 2017, 11:58 PM

While it is simply an opinion blog and not an imperical study, even in this link it makes the claim right wingers are less intelligent!

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/if-liberals-are-more-intelligent-conservatives-why-are

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 12:00 AM

That’s because I’m a dyslexic; I can’t spell! Although I make some words up and also use the foreign spelling of some slang words, but according to studies, you may be too ‘lacking in intelligence’’ to work that out!

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 01:00 AM

Funny that, pick you up on one misspelled word and suddenly you're dyslexic! I think your 'liberal elitism' bigotry is fighting to get out. Nice try, No cigar.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 01:06 AM

But smarter, unlike you!
“Perhaps the Great Dawkins wasn’t so wise. Oh, he was intelligent, but some of the most intelligent otters that I’ve ever known were completely lacking in common sense.”

Posted by: newres Oct 24 2017, 06:28 AM

At times it’s best to give up, but it is fun to wind up the thickies. Day to day life experience tells me that the prejudiced are normally pretty unintelligent and the science is no surprise. Wish I’d found the article though. Go to the top of the class AC.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 07:01 AM

I’m no elitist; i’m ordinary intelligent and live an ordinary life with an ordinary job, but it is true, I cannot spell; however, I’m bright enough to yank a chain or two! 😋

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 08:42 AM

And there's you 'prejudiced' against anyone who doesn't think down the same regimented libtard remoaners way as you. Oh dear, how unintelligent does that make you? Still, go toddle off in your imaginary 5 series, to your third rate little job.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 11:24 AM

I’d imagine its a Prius or Tesla; Beemers are for swivel-eyed righties with a chipolata for a sausage! 😋

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 12:16 PM

He's already claimed a BMW 530. Try at least to keep up, Libtard. What's he then? Swivel eyed lefty with a chipolata for a sausage? Bet you'd have a pious if you could!!

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 12:45 PM

I don’t read all your squabbles, but cars are of little interest to me; I’m too poor and libertarded!

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 24 2017, 01:12 PM

The amusing thing about newres is he is part of the white flight from London...but he preaches like he's a bl00dy saint. Good old libtards. Do as I say not as I do...

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 02:52 PM

Interested enough to post this though.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 05:03 PM

Yes, correct.

Posted by: newres Oct 24 2017, 05:08 PM

Not really. I was only in London for university and stayed on. But then I got a job in Bracknell and Thames Valley was the place for IT sales jobs, plus my parents live in Bristol so we moved closer to my work and my family. That said, it goes without saying that the schools are better here than in south London and so it was a consideration.

Posted by: newres Oct 24 2017, 05:09 PM

So much anger. It’s all just pixels. Calm down.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 05:14 PM

But "cars are of little interest to me" huh. Like most of your Ilk, talk gibberish, then wriggle. Had that op yet? The one to remove the webs from between your toes?

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 06:12 PM

Yes, cars are of little interest; I prefer Japanes classic motorcycles.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 06:16 PM

It’s OK, brother, with our new found scientificly proved knowledge and superior intelligence, we should be making allowances.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 06:16 PM

What have you got??

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 06:17 PM

Just don't show off too much, like by trying to spell Japanese.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 06:20 PM

Waits while AC engages Google.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 24 2017, 06:28 PM

Too many brown and black faces eh? Wouldn't want your kids being taught in that environment....I think we've found ourselves a closet racist. Methinks you protest toooo much.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 24 2017, 06:36 PM

By "brother" do you mean comrade? Have you got your little red book??

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 06:45 PM

I suspected inbreeding, he'll start calling him dad soon!! it's where the webbed feet come from.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 06:46 PM

Why? do you think he can read?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 24 2017, 06:49 PM

Makes sense. They both probably have Brompton bikes as well..Those fold up ones that pi55 everybody off on the train. Everyone else on the train calls them "Brompton W@nkers" .. And they have no idea....

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 24 2017, 06:50 PM

Probably not but they can repeat. A bit like parrots...

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 08:51 PM

Don’t have a car or a byke

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 08:55 PM

I have a retro Specialized Rock Hopper which I haven’t ridden in years.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 24 2017, 09:05 PM

Nah... I reckon you get all lycra'd up and pedal your silly looking brompton w@nker bike to the station to catch either the 0708 or 0747... Probably get on all sweaty and ask everyone to move out of the way... Libtard mammil lycra brompton bike w@nker coming through.....😂

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 09:08 PM

I walk to the station.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Oct 24 2017, 09:34 PM

👍

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 10:03 PM

Cycling blows a hole in the crutch of me jeans!

Posted by: je suis Charlie Oct 24 2017, 10:21 PM

Probably the only thing that does these days.

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 24 2017, 10:32 PM

Well seeing as I haven't cycled for a few years, that isn't true.

Posted by: SirWilliam Oct 25 2017, 11:47 AM

Why are you imposing your manhood on a hapless penguin ? Is nothing sacred ?

Posted by: Biker1 Oct 25 2017, 07:25 PM

And I was relying on you to bring back some sensible adult debate to these pages SirW!

Posted by: Andy Capp Oct 25 2017, 08:06 PM

You might have to wait until the kids are put to bed