I don't believe it! Options

[Bloggo]

It was a joke (wink smilie), but never mind.


When prison was 'tuff', people still broke the law as they do today. You are implying by going back that it would fix the problem.

Bloggo: "I agree. Some people have their head in the sand. If you have suffered a break-in or been assaulted and robbed you may think differently.".

I'm not sure it would.

Really, I'm absoloutly sure.

[dannyboy]

. You can't teach a man that crime does not pay when he has 3 good meals day, TV, games, mobile phones, etc etc.

Unless you are talking from experience, you can't really comment on what 6 months in a prison is like.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

It was a joke (wink smilie), but never mind.


When prison was 'tuff', people still broke the law as they do today. You are implying by going back that it would fix the problem.

"I agree. Some people have their head in the sand. If you have suffered a break-in or been assaulted and robbed you may think differently.".

I'm not sure it would.

Quite agree. It would make ME feel better though as a law abiding citizen to see individuals who break the law be made to pay for it in terms of infringements on liberty and a tough regime. Not what we have at the moment....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11156972

[Bloggo]

Unless you are talking from experience, you can't really comment on what 6 months in a prison is like.

What an foolish thing to say.
Are you really saying that if one has not physically experienced something then you have no understanding of it?
What about reading about it, watching a TV documentary, discussions with people who have been in jail or being at a lecture where a reformed criminal gives his account of being in prison.

[Andy]

What an foolish thing to say.
Are you really saying that if one has not physically experienced something then you have no understanding of it?
What about reading about it, watching a TV documentary, discussions with people who have been in jail or being at a lecture where a reformed criminal gives his account of being in prison.

Those mediums help form an opinion, but unless you actually experience prison your perceptions of it will always be flawed to some degree.

[Bloggo]

Those mediums help form an opinion, but unless you actually experience prison your perceptions of it will always be flawed to some degree.

One's own experience is the best informant that there is however since there has been so much information and visibility in the public domain regarding the conditions in prison the fact that I have not actually stayed in one does not denigrate my opinion.
Anyone who denies my brief but accurate description of the luxuries bestowed on prison inmates is sadly totally misinformed.

[dannyboy]

What an foolish thing to say.
Are you really saying that if one has not physically experienced something then you have no understanding of it?
What about reading about it, watching a TV documentary, discussions with people who have been in jail or being at a lecture where a reformed criminal gives his account of being in prison.

So, you have done all the above have you? Even if you have there will be bias & hidden agenda.

And, yes I am saying that reading someone else's account of something is not the same as experiencing it oneself.

[Bloggo]

So, you have done all the above have you?

No, not all.

Even if you have there will be bias & hidden agenda.

Quite so. Bias can be applied for and against an argument.

And, yes I am saying that reading someone else's account of something is not the same as experiencing it oneself.

I agree. See my post 46.

[Iommi]

Really, I'm absoloutly sure.

Despite history as proof you might be wrong?

Quite agree. It would make ME feel better though as a law abiding citizen to see individuals who break the law be made to pay for it in terms of infringements on liberty and a tough regime. Not what we have at the moment.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11156972

As a person is in a gaol, you wouldn't 'see' justice done. As for the link, that isn't about life in prison.

[Bloggo]

Despite history as proof you might be wrong?

If the punishment is strong enough then yes I am sure.

[Iommi]

If the punishment is strong enough then yes I am sure.

But history says you are mistaken!

I cannot get to the data now, but my understanding is that the biggest effect on crime (other than hard crime) is the likelihood of gaol, not the conditions in gaol.

[Bloggo]

But history says you are mistaken!

I cannot get to the data now, but my understanding is that the biggest effect on crime (other than hard crime) is the likelihood of gaol, not the conditions in gaol.

OK, I understand if you wish to disagree with me based on whatever statistics you have seen.

I believe that today the fear of prison has been wholly undermined by the justice system that consistantly allows offenders, and worse still serial offenders, to avoid jail sentences.
Those jail sentences that are awarded are totally inadequate in their duration and above all the conditions in prison is totally inappropriate to send the message to the offender that they have done wrong.
I would change all of these and make the whole system a salutory lesson that crime does not pay and you would want to avoid prison at all costs.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

OK, I understand if you wish to disagree with me based on whatever statistics you have seen.

I believe that today the fear of prison has been wholly undermined by the justice system that consistantly allows offenders, and worse still serial offenders, to avoid jail sentences.
Those jail sentences that are awarded are totally inadequate in their duration and above all the conditions in prison is totally inappropriate to send the message to the offender that they have done wrong.
I would change all of these and make the whole system a salutory lesson that crime does not pay and you would want to avoid prison at all costs.

It's not an argument you will win with some folk Bloggo. They would rather go for 'care in the community'. Lets face it - You are punished for your burglary by doing some community service where you get cups of tea and drugs delivered to you on site. What a punishment... That'll teach em!

[Bloggo]

It's not an argument you will win with some folk Bloggo. They would rather go for 'care in the community'. Lets face it - You are punished for your burglary by doing some community service where you get cups of tea and drugs delivered to you on site. What a punishment... That'll teach em!

Yep, I know. It's a bit uphill isn't it.

[Jayjay]

I do think prison sentances should reflect the crime, such as murder earning a life term that means the rest of your life. For lesser crimes I think society needs to bring back the shame element. One if the reasons your didn't commit an offence (or get pregnant) was the shame it would bring on your family. People nowadays seem to take pride in doing a stint in the big house.

[Iommi]

It's not an argument you will win with some folk Bloggo. They would rather go for 'care in the community'. Lets face it - You are punished for your burglary by doing some community service where you get cups of tea and drugs delivered to you on site. What a punishment... That'll teach em!

I doubt ANYONE 'approves' of any of that, other than the crims themselves, but we can have a childish debate if you want; I'm good at them as well.

[Bloggo]

I doubt ANYONE 'approves' of any of that, other than the crims themselves, but we can have a childish debate if you want; I'm good at them as well.

Well, we agree again

[On the edge]

But history says you are mistaken!

I cannot get to the data now, but my understanding is that the biggest effect on crime (other than hard crime) is the likelihood of gaol, not the conditions in gaol.

My experience suggests the opposite. Regrettably, trawling through numbers you might see online doesn't help because of significant differences in the way the numbers were created. Similarly, the context needs to be understood. However, learned studies (which are 'pay for searches') will tell you otherwise. The deterrent effect is multi faceted, but penal conditions do play a large part.

[Iommi]

My experience suggests the opposite. Regrettably, trawling through numbers you might see online doesn't help because of significant differences in the way the numbers were created. Similarly, the context needs to be understood. However, learned studies (which are 'pay for searches') will tell you otherwise. The deterrent effect is multi faceted, but penal conditions do play a large part.

My information came from a thesis, not just a random site of data. People are not very fearful of a punishment, if the likelihood of being caught, or the likelihood of the punishment being metered out, is small. Also; it seems the deterrent effect is low for violent crime.

[On the edge]

And, yes I am saying that reading someone else's account of something is not the same as experiencing it oneself.

Quite accurate however, it we all took that attitude we might as well just give up - on everything! If we had to 'experience' something before we thought it was right - then there would be no innovation! In this particular case, I think we can all work out what it would be like 'on your own in harsh conditions' for six months. We have moved away from hard penal conditions and the reforms came in over time, ironically generally at periods when the crime rates were low.

Prison reform was also pushed by many people who were satisfying their own personal concience needs - rather than considering society as a whole; always very dangerous! i.e. Elizabeth Fry, a prominent Quaker (nothing wrong with that in itself before fingers hit keyboards!!!)

I also accept that if wanting to live in a safe society and protect my neighbours from wrongdoers rather than worrying about the individual needs of someone who clearly doesn't care about others is extremist - then hands up - that's me!