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Andy Capp
post Jun 7 2017, 08:09 PM
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True or not, this is an interesting read: https://cookingonabootstrap.com/2017/06/07/...plicit-content/
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Mr Brown
post Nov 6 2017, 10:18 PM
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The UK certainly isn't ruled by minority pressure groups, even though it might seem so on occasions. Of course pressure groups try and often succeed in influencing party policy; but party still rules. As we saw in the previous coalition, the LibDems had quite limited effect on government policy. In this government, the Unionists are actually a breed of Tory.
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newres
post Nov 7 2017, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Nov 6 2017, 10:18 PM) *
The UK certainly isn't ruled by minority pressure groups, even though it might seem so on occasions. Of course pressure groups try and often succeed in influencing party policy; but party still rules. As we saw in the previous coalition, the LibDems had quite limited effect on government policy. In this government, the Unionists are actually a breed of Tory.

UKIP. wink.gif

We are exiting Europe because of a pressure group stealing votes from the tories.
.
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Mr Brown
post Nov 7 2017, 07:09 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 7 2017, 06:29 AM) *
UKIP. wink.gif

We are exiting Europe because of a pressure group stealing votes from the tories.
.


UKIP, was really no more than an irritant. The Conservatives took us out of Europe because they'd never settled the fundamental question properly themselves. What the leaders of the party espouse is not always in line with the majority of their supporters. Conservative discontent about Europe hadn't dropped since their leadership took us in.
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newres
post Nov 7 2017, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Nov 7 2017, 07:09 AM) *
UKIP, was really no more than an irritant. The Conservatives took us out of Europe because they'd never settled the fundamental question properly themselves. What the leaders of the party espouse is not always in line with the majority of their supporters. Conservative discontent about Europe hadn't dropped since their leadership took us in.

UKIP is the reason we had the referendum. No UKIP, no referendum. The Tories stuck it in the manifesto to shore up their vote which was deserting to UKIP.
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SirWilliam
post Nov 7 2017, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 7 2017, 03:09 PM) *
UKIP is the reason we had the referendum. No UKIP, no referendum. The Tories stuck it in the manifesto to shore up their vote which was deserting to UKIP.


You are quite correct . Had Cameron not panicked over the thought of millions of disillusioned Tories changing their allegiance to Farage and his "bovver boys " , ( like that was ever going to happen ) , the referendum would never have been called and everyone in the Country would still be friends with their neighbours .Of course his second and even bigger mistake was not gauging the amount of anti European sentiment and loathing for a federalist overlord the populace at large held.
Of course UKIP / Johnson / Gove et al claim the credit but in all honesty if they had sodded off to Mars for the duration the outcome would have been the same , all we have to do now is convince a lot of other people that , rightly or wrongly , it is a fait accompli .


--------------------
Si non prius succederent.......... relinquere
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Mr Brown
post Nov 7 2017, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 7 2017, 03:49 PM) *
You are quite correct . Had Cameron not panicked over the thought of millions of disillusioned Tories changing their allegiance to Farage and his "bovver boys " , ( like that was ever going to happen ) , the referendum would never have been called and everyone in the Country would still be friends with their neighbours .Of course his second and even bigger mistake was not gauging the amount of anti European sentiment and loathing for a federalist overlord the populace at large held.
Of course UKIP / Johnson / Gove et al claim the credit but in all honesty if they had sodded off to Mars for the duration the outcome would have been the same , all we have to do now is convince a lot of other people that , rightly or wrongly , it is a fait accompli .


Not a bad synopsys. The Tories have never been committed to Europe, as we saw very plainly in both Mrs Thatcher and Mr Major's time. Like it or not, the Country is traditionally Tory, so arguably, the anti Tory MPs have always been attuned to popular opinion. I'd certainly agree that with or without UKIP, the referendum result would have been the same. The Tories saw the Europe issue as a constant running sore in the party and that's what Cameron was trying to cover. Arguably putting party before country; another Tory trait!

If we are looking to apportion blame for the referendum result, I'd argue that the EU executive and Euro MEPs were the real culprits - 40 years of failing to get a positive message across.
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newres
post Nov 7 2017, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Nov 7 2017, 05:10 PM) *
Not a bad synopsys. The Tories have never been committed to Europe, as we saw very plainly in both Mrs Thatcher and Mr Major's time. Like it or not, the Country is traditionally Tory, so arguably, the anti Tory MPs have always been attuned to popular opinion. I'd certainly agree that with or without UKIP, the referendum result would have been the same. The Tories saw the Europe issue as a constant running sore in the party and that's what Cameron was trying to cover. Arguably putting party before country; another Tory trait!

If we are looking to apportion blame for the referendum result, I'd argue that the EU executive and Euro MEPs were the real culprits - 40 years of failing to get a positive message across.

I 100% disagree with almost all of that. Certainly the EU isn’t perfect. Neither is our own parliament/democracy. Look what’s happening now with the “sex” scandals. Ludicrous. Look at the unelected Lords. Look at lobbying scandals and so on. I think people understood that. What UKIP did was to shift the blame for everything to the EU including refugees from Syria which if anything are a product of US and UK interference in the Middle East.

Thatcher and Major weren’t anti EU. What about Maastricht? I’m not sure what the exact split is on Brexit but it wouldn’t surprise me if the majority of Tiry MPs weren’t remainers. I’m quite prepared to be wrong on that. You are probably right though that a majority of party members voted for Brexit, but given the age demographic and the nationalistic slant of the tories that’s no surprise.
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- Andy Capp   Abbott Shmabbott   Jun 7 2017, 08:09 PM
- - Simon Kirby   Yes, read that earlier, it gives some useful persp...   Jun 7 2017, 08:12 PM
|- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jun 7 2017, 09:12 PM...   Jun 7 2017, 08:20 PM
|- - newres   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 7 2017, 09...   Jun 7 2017, 08:28 PM
|- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 7 2017, 09:28 PM) She...   Jun 7 2017, 08:32 PM
||- - newres   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 7 2017, 09...   Jun 7 2017, 08:39 PM
||- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 7 2017, 09:39 PM) Did...   Jun 7 2017, 08:43 PM
|- - x2lls   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 7 2017, 09:28 PM) She...   Jun 8 2017, 01:01 AM
|- - newres   QUOTE (x2lls @ Jun 8 2017, 02:01 AM) He i...   Jun 8 2017, 05:48 AM
|- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 8 2017, 06:48 AM) But...   Jun 8 2017, 05:53 AM
||- - newres   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 8 2017, 06...   Jun 8 2017, 06:15 AM
||- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 8 2017, 07:15 AM) Or ...   Jun 8 2017, 06:25 AM
||- - je suis Charlie   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 8 2017, 07:15 AM) Or ...   Jun 8 2017, 09:24 AM
|||- - newres   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jun 8 2017, 10:2...   Jun 8 2017, 10:38 AM
|||- - On the edge   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 8 2017, 11:38 AM) Do ...   Jun 8 2017, 10:45 AM
|||- - x2lls   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 8 2017, 11:38 AM) Do ...   Jun 8 2017, 01:25 PM
|||- - newres   QUOTE (x2lls @ Jun 8 2017, 02:25 PM) The ...   Jun 8 2017, 03:07 PM
|||- - je suis Charlie   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 8 2017, 04:07 PM) Tha...   Jun 8 2017, 03:18 PM
|||- - On the edge   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jun 8 2017, 04:1...   Jun 8 2017, 07:55 PM
|||- - je suis Charlie   QUOTE (On the edge @ Jun 8 2017, 08:55 PM...   Jun 8 2017, 10:12 PM
||- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 8 2017, 07:15 AM) Or ...   Jun 8 2017, 07:13 PM
|- - x2lls   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 8 2017, 06:48 AM) But...   Jun 8 2017, 07:55 AM
- - newres   Some of those tweets are diabolical. It may be tha...   Jun 7 2017, 08:25 PM
|- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 7 2017, 09:25 PM) Som...   Jun 7 2017, 08:27 PM
||- - newres   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 7 2017, 09...   Jun 7 2017, 08:29 PM
||- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 7 2017, 09:29 PM) Is ...   Jun 7 2017, 08:36 PM
||- - newres   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 7 2017, 09...   Jun 7 2017, 08:40 PM
||- - On the edge   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 7 2017, 09...   Jun 7 2017, 09:14 PM
||- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (On the edge @ Jun 7 2017, 10:14 PM...   Jun 7 2017, 09:23 PM
||- - On the edge   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 7 2017, 10...   Jun 8 2017, 06:14 AM
|- - On the edge   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 7 2017, 09:25 PM) Som...   Jun 7 2017, 08:58 PM
||- - On the edge   Our very confrontational style of press reporting ...   Jun 7 2017, 09:04 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (newres @ Jun 7 2017, 09:25 PM) Som...   Jun 7 2017, 09:02 PM
- - Andy Capp   I think Diane Abbott is demonstrably racist, albei...   Jun 7 2017, 09:49 PM
|- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 7 2017, 10:49 PM) ...   Jun 7 2017, 09:50 PM
- - je suis Charlie   Sick? Like she was on article 50? Yeah, rite. She...   Jun 7 2017, 10:23 PM
- - x2lls   Regardless of the history of the woman, what she s...   Jun 8 2017, 12:04 AM
- - Andy Capp   It's called being open minded and willing to s...   Jun 8 2017, 05:41 AM
- - je suis Charlie   I see she's miraculously better, JC probably l...   Jun 14 2017, 07:09 AM
|- - On the edge   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jun 14 2017, 08...   Jun 14 2017, 09:33 AM
|- - blackdog   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jun 14 2017, 08...   Jun 14 2017, 09:41 AM
- - SirWilliam   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 7 2017, 09:09 PM) ...   Jun 14 2017, 08:42 AM
- - Andy Capp   I have hunch she has confused her numbers again. ...   Jun 14 2017, 11:08 AM
|- - Berkshirelad   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 14 2017, 12:08 PM)...   Jun 19 2017, 01:25 PM
- - Turin Machine   3 2 1 and she's back in the room! ...   Jun 18 2017, 02:10 PM
- - SirWilliam   You can't keep a good woman down ..........But...   Jun 19 2017, 08:11 AM
- - gel   Perhaps she has Type 3 just for minority groups.   Jun 19 2017, 01:40 PM
|- - Turin Machine   QUOTE (gel @ Jun 19 2017, 02:40 PM) Perha...   Jun 19 2017, 01:42 PM
|- - gel   QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Jun 19 2017, 02:42...   Jun 19 2017, 02:40 PM
- - On the edge   Perhaps we need an MP 'person profile', t...   Jun 19 2017, 03:23 PM
|- - Turin Machine   QUOTE (On the edge @ Jun 19 2017, 04:23 P...   Jun 19 2017, 03:35 PM
- - blackdog   Abbot may well be spouting the truth that she lost...   Jun 19 2017, 06:14 PM
|- - Turin Machine   QUOTE (blackdog @ Jun 19 2017, 07:14 PM) ...   Jun 19 2017, 06:22 PM
- - je suis Charlie   The words 'foot' and 'mouth' sprin...   Nov 4 2017, 04:07 PM
|- - SirWilliam   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Nov 4 2017, 04:0...   Nov 4 2017, 04:23 PM
||- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 4 2017, 04:23 PM)...   Nov 4 2017, 04:43 PM
||- - je suis Charlie   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Nov 4 2017, 04...   Nov 4 2017, 05:28 PM
|||- - newres   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Nov 4 2017, 05:2...   Nov 5 2017, 02:52 PM
|||- - je suis Charlie   QUOTE (newres @ Nov 5 2017, 02:52 PM) I’l...   Nov 5 2017, 03:09 PM
||||- - newres   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Nov 5 2017, 03:0...   Nov 5 2017, 05:31 PM
||||- - je suis Charlie   QUOTE (newres @ Nov 5 2017, 05:31 PM) I j...   Nov 5 2017, 05:35 PM
||||- - newres   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Nov 5 2017, 05:3...   Nov 5 2017, 05:44 PM
||||- - je suis Charlie   QUOTE (newres @ Nov 5 2017, 05:44 PM) Mor...   Nov 5 2017, 06:02 PM
|||- - SirWilliam   QUOTE (newres @ Nov 5 2017, 02:52 PM) I’l...   Nov 5 2017, 04:21 PM
|||- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (newres @ Nov 5 2017, 02:52 PM) I’l...   Nov 5 2017, 04:22 PM
|||- - SirWilliam   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Nov 5 2017, 04...   Nov 5 2017, 05:05 PM
|||- - je suis Charlie   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Nov 5 2017, 04...   Nov 5 2017, 05:36 PM
||- - SirWilliam   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Nov 4 2017, 04...   Nov 4 2017, 06:55 PM
|- - Turin Machine   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Nov 4 2017, 04:0...   Nov 4 2017, 06:21 PM
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- - Turin Machine   Boys! Play nice now!   Nov 5 2017, 06:18 PM
- - SirWilliam   In the ongoing bun fight between TDH / je suis Cha...   Nov 5 2017, 06:20 PM
|- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 5 2017, 06:20 PM)...   Nov 5 2017, 07:10 PM
- - je suis Charlie   Wouldn't get out of bed for that salary.   Nov 5 2017, 07:18 PM
|- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Nov 5 2017, 07:1...   Nov 5 2017, 07:38 PM
|- - SirWilliam   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Nov 5 2017, 07...   Nov 5 2017, 07:49 PM
|- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 5 2017, 07:49 PM)...   Nov 5 2017, 08:09 PM
|- - newres   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Nov 5 2017, 08...   Nov 5 2017, 09:21 PM
|- - Mr Brown   QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Nov 5 2017, 08...   Nov 5 2017, 09:47 PM
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|- - Mr Brown   QUOTE (newres @ Nov 6 2017, 07:21 AM) PR ...   Nov 6 2017, 09:49 AM
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|- - Mr Brown   QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 6 2017, 01:10 PM)...   Nov 6 2017, 03:56 PM
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|- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (newres @ Nov 6 2017, 05:20 PM) Got...   Nov 6 2017, 06:20 PM
||- - newres   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Nov 6 2017, 06:20 PM) ...   Nov 6 2017, 08:33 PM
|- - Mr Brown   QUOTE (newres @ Nov 6 2017, 05:20 PM) Got...   Nov 6 2017, 07:33 PM
|- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Nov 7 2017, 07:09 AM) U...   Nov 7 2017, 08:00 AM
|- - je suis Charlie   QUOTE (newres @ Nov 7 2017, 03:09 PM) UKI...   Nov 7 2017, 04:10 PM
- - SirWilliam   The list is endless; maybe they should form a new ...   Nov 7 2017, 02:40 PM
- - Turin Machine   This is something the French do very well, everywh...   Nov 7 2017, 05:31 PM
- - Turin Machine   From the independent; "Mr Cameron and the po...   Nov 7 2017, 05:53 PM
- - TallDarkAndHandsome   QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Nov 7 2017, 05:53 ...   Nov 7 2017, 07:07 PM
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