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> National 'H'unt, the 'Grand national'.
Andy Capp
post Apr 14 2012, 11:43 PM
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RIP 'According to Pete' and 'Synchronised', who didn't want to race it seems. They were 'humanely' destroyed.

15 of the 40 starters completed the course.

A sick sport followed by sick people for sick reasons.
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Strafin
post Apr 15 2012, 06:11 AM
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I think "sick" is a little strong, tradition and history make people see things in a different light. I think the sport as a whole is not that bad, but it does need to be refined somehow. Beechers Brook at Aintree should just be removed, horses shouldn't die regularly, we wouldn't accept regular loss of life in any other sport.
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Penelope
post Apr 15 2012, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 15 2012, 12:43 AM) *
RIP 'According to Pete' and 'Synchronised', who didn't want to race it seems. They were 'humanely' destroyed.

15 of the 40 starters completed the course.

A sick sport followed by sick people for sick reasons.


This is a very emotive subject, it is the biggest meet of the calendar and provides much pleasure for many. Did I cry when I saw the black tents ? Yes of course I did. To lose such a magnificent animal such as a horse for sport is obscene yet we as a nation regularly allow horses to be treated with cruelty. Not to mention the horses we export to slaughter houses on the Continent.

The national is a conundrum, how do you race yet protect the animals ? It's an argument that has been raging for years.
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Nothing Much
post Apr 15 2012, 12:31 PM
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It is a sad end to a race of endurance. My daughter had a "share" in a horse for a while. 16.5 hands
She was taken for a ride on her first lone hack. After a bit of a frightening moment.
She said I am in charge. I muck out your stable at 06.00 on a Sunday(the largest in the yard)
"You ,Ronin" do what I say. They got on well after that.

I have never been keen on sporting events, and sorry that horses have been destroyed.
She took me to the stage version of Warhorse.

There is hope however, the first Suffolk Punch (Heavy Horse) for ages was born recently in Anglia.
ce
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Simon Kirby
post Apr 15 2012, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 15 2012, 12:43 AM) *
RIP 'According to Pete' and 'Synchronised', who didn't want to race it seems. They were 'humanely' destroyed.

15 of the 40 starters completed the course.

A sick sport followed by sick people for sick reasons.

I'm conflicted on this. I'm a vegetarian and animal welfare is hugely important to me, but I don't see any intrinsic problem in horse racing per se, it's a relatively natural behaviour and as a rule race horses are treated well. However, the jumps on the Aintree course are manifestly too punishing and as far as I can tell there's no defendable reason not to make the course easier and the field much smaller.


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Gazzadp
post Apr 15 2012, 05:42 PM
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I have heard that AP McCoy is blaming a wind turbinein the distance, that he thinks spooked his horse as it jumped Becher's.

As for when he got thrown off, according to my lip reading abilities the other Jockey he was cantoring down to the start with, said "Hey Tony, do you know I am having a wind turbine installed at home" well at that AP tensed up and the horse sensed it and threw him off...

As when the cameras showed AP walking around after being thown of he was clearly say "F***** wind turbines"


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Strafin
post Apr 15 2012, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 15 2012, 06:31 PM) *
I'm conflicted on this. I'm a vegetarian and animal welfare is hugely important to me, but I don't see any intrinsic problem in horse racing per se, it's a relatively natural behaviour and as a rule race horses are treated well. However, the jumps on the Aintree course are manifestly too punishing and as far as I can tell there's no defendable reason not to make the course easier and the field much smaller.

Just curious and it is off topic, but how much of a veggie are you? It makes no odds I'm just curious. I gave up meat in January for a month and my digestive system thanked me, I then gave it up for lent, but continued with meat products, for example stock, and I still had fish.
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Andy Capp
post Apr 15 2012, 09:34 PM
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At the end of the day, just like smoking and alcohol, if it wasn't for so much money, it would be banned.
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Jayjay
post Apr 15 2012, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 15 2012, 10:34 PM) *
At the end of the day, just like smoking and alcohol, if it wasn't for so much money, it would be banned.


Horse racing, the grand national or vegetarianism?
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Andy Capp
post Apr 15 2012, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (Jayjay @ Apr 15 2012, 10:40 PM) *
Horse racing, the grand national or vegetarianism?

WDYT?
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Simon Kirby
post Apr 15 2012, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Apr 15 2012, 07:00 PM) *
Just curious and it is off topic, but how much of a veggie are you? It makes no odds I'm just curious. I gave up meat in January for a month and my digestive system thanked me, I then gave it up for lent, but continued with meat products, for example stock, and I still had fish.

I don't eat birds or mammals. I have my concerns about eating fish but I still do, and I'm not vegan so I don't have a problem with dairy. I've been vegetarian for getting on 20 years and I really don't give it any thought. I mentioned it just to illustrate a reasonably committed attitude to animal welfare.


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Simon Kirby
post Apr 15 2012, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 15 2012, 10:34 PM) *
At the end of the day, just like smoking and alcohol, if it wasn't for so much money, it would be banned.

Is horse racing inhumane per se? I don't have any real understanding of the sport so I really don't know, but it doesn't appear to be so to me. What to me is a no-brainer is getting rid of the whip, but other than that is there any objectionable level of distress and suffering associated with horse racing in general, leaving aside the obvious problems with the Grand National?

I don't think the comparison with smoking and drinking is a good one. For both the interests of individual civil liberties are not at all well served with a ban, and for alcohol US prohibition has shown that criminalisation is a disasterous idea, and the same could very easily be said for the criminalisation of drugs. I enjoy the occaisonal cigar, I don't depend on it, but I don't see why the state should ban me from enjoying it.


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Andy Capp
post Apr 15 2012, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 15 2012, 10:56 PM) *
I enjoy the occaisonal cigar, I don't depend on it, but I don't see why the state should ban me from enjoying it.

Nor do I, but what has this got to do with the OP?
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JeffG
post Apr 16 2012, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 15 2012, 10:46 PM) *
I have my concerns about eating fish but I still do
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 15 2012, 10:46 PM) *
I've been vegetarian for getting on 20 years

Those two statements are mutually exclusive!
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Squelchy
post Apr 16 2012, 03:09 PM
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No.

A Vegetarian doesn't eat meat but will sometimes eat fish and often eat dairy products.

It's a Vegan who doesn't eat meat or fish.
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Andy Capp
post Apr 16 2012, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Squelchy @ Apr 16 2012, 04:09 PM) *
No.

A Vegetarian doesn't eat meat but will sometimes eat fish and often eat dairy products.

It's a Vegan who doesn't eat meat or fish.

I understand that a vegetarian doesn't eat creatures but will eat their by-products; vegans avoid anything to do with creatures. Simon is technically a Pescetarian.
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Squelchy
post Apr 16 2012, 04:44 PM
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Yes, and 5th level Vegans don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

But I was just trying to be helpful, without breaking it down too much, to JeffG, who seemed confused.

But if Simon has been that way for twenty years, then he hasn't always been able to be called a 'Pescetarian' since the word didn't pop up until about 1993.
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Strafin
post Apr 16 2012, 05:04 PM
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A vegetarian wouldn't eat meat or its derivatives. This rules out a lot of cheese's, beers and wines, and gelatin products. They certainly wouldn't eat fish.

http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=698
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Andy Capp
post Apr 16 2012, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Apr 16 2012, 06:04 PM) *
A vegetarian wouldn't eat meat or its derivatives. This rules out a lot of cheese's, beers and wines, and gelatin products. They certainly wouldn't eat fish.

http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=698

GENERALY speaking, a vegetarian will drink and eat milk and eggs respectively, but not anything that a creature has to die for. Vegans will not have anything to do with anything that was sourced from a creature.
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Strafin
post Apr 16 2012, 05:40 PM
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Just to clarify meat by (bi?) products are not acceptable to a vegetarian. This includes bones, skin and tissue used in the production of other foods. A vegan won't use any animal product at all. Some people pick and choose which bits they are willing to eat, in fact I guess we all do that to a degree. Back (almost to the OP I think animal welfare is pretty bad in this country, not as bad as most of Europe though. I sometimes wonder about giving up meat but I don't think that it really helps the situation. Fair play to Simon though.
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