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> Food-banks
Petra
post Nov 8 2015, 09:40 AM
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Here is a teaser for you all to answer. Are food banks necessary or just an instrument of abuse? And are people really suffering or just bad at managing their money? Or just very clever?
Food banks are now everywhere, which means that people who are short of money can redirect what they have got (to smart phones, satellite TV etc.) and away from the essentials (such as food) because food-banks supplies that need.

It will be interesting to see how people will come back on this one.

Yours,

Petra
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Cognosco
post Nov 8 2015, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (Petra @ Nov 8 2015, 09:40 AM) *
Here is a teaser for you all to answer. Are food banks necessary or just an instrument of abuse? And are people really suffering or just bad at managing their money? Or just very clever?
Food banks are now everywhere, which means that people who are short of money can redirect what they have got (to smart phones, satellite TV etc.) and away from the essentials (such as food) because food-banks supplies that need.

It will be interesting to see how people will come back on this one.

Yours,

Petra


Someone who suffers because of destiny, or social conditions, or for other reasons, suffers most profoundly when they do not experience that somebody cares – indifference is immorality.”

Let's hope you or yours do not suffer a downturn in these austere times, some have and not found it pleasant!


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GMR
post Nov 8 2015, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Nov 8 2015, 02:46 PM) *
Someone who suffers because of destiny, or social conditions, or for other reasons, suffers most profoundly when they do not experience that somebody cares – indifference is immorality." Let's hope you or yours do not suffer a downturn in these austere times, some have and not found it pleasant!





Unless I am misreading the main post; isn't she saying that it can be abused. And the way I see it, yes, it is being abused.

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Simon Kirby
post Nov 8 2015, 05:04 PM
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Take the Trussel Trust Food Banks for example: They only give food parcels on referral from a variety of professionals and then generally only for three weeks, so it's quite hard to abuse their system. The Trussel Trust did however attracted some significant criticism from the Conservative-Lib Dem alliance government because it was making their hideous welfare provision look, well hideous. The particular problem as I understand it is that the welfare state can take a long time to respond to a crisis, maybe six weeks, and a family can find itself in dire need in that time. The Trussel Trust appears to be particularly well run by ethical Christian chap and the success of their model has embarrassed the government because its growth has only been possible because of the Lib Dem and Conservative welfare policy.

The Daily Hail has also championed something of a campaign against the Trussel Trust, so it must be getting something right.


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GMR
post Nov 8 2015, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Nov 8 2015, 05:04 PM) *
Take the Trussel Trust Food Banks for example: They only give food parcels on referral from a variety of professionals and then generally only for three weeks, so it's quite hard to abuse their system. The Trussel Trust did however attracted some significant criticism from the Conservative-Lib Dem alliance government because it was making their hideous welfare provision look, well hideous. The particular problem as I understand it is that the welfare state can take a long time to respond to a crisis, maybe six weeks, and a family can find itself in dire need in that time. The Trussel Trust appears to be particularly well run by ethical Christian chap and the success of their model has embarrassed the government because its growth has only been possible because of the Lib Dem and Conservative welfare policy. The Daily Hail has also championed something of a campaign against the Trussel Trust, so it must be getting something right.





Yes, but it isn't hard to get a referral. All you need is Income support/ unemployed and say you are desperate. But what defines that person from another? That is another unemployed person?

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Andy Capp
post Nov 8 2015, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Petra @ Nov 8 2015, 09:40 AM) *
Here is a teaser for you all to answer. Are food banks necessary or just an instrument of abuse? And are people really suffering or just bad at managing their money? Or just very clever?
Food banks are now everywhere, which means that people who are short of money can redirect what they have got (to smart phones, satellite TV etc.) and away from the essentials (such as food) because food-banks supplies that need.

It will be interesting to see how people will come back on this one.

Yours,

Petra

It is also possible many people are short of money.
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Simon Kirby
post Nov 8 2015, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Nov 8 2015, 05:18 PM) *
Yes, but it isn't hard to get a referral. All you need is Income support/ unemployed and say you are desperate. But what defines that person from another? That is another unemployed person?

I see no evidence for that conclusion. The referrals are made by professionals so there is a degree of competent assessment of their acute crisis need to differentiate them from what you describe as "another unemployed person" - though in point of fact I don't believe every claimant is necessarily unemployed. Recipients are also limited to three weeks of support so there is very limited opportunity for those not in acute need to take advantage.

QUOTE (Chris Mould, Chief Executive Trussell Trust)
In the last year, we've seen things get worse, rather than better, for many people on low incomes.


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On the edge
post Nov 8 2015, 07:24 PM
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The great thing about most Food Banks is that they are sourced and run totally independently. So, on that basis, what right have we got to criticise their validity? It does mean that the people who support them clearly feel our State welfare provision is inadequate in some areas and more, are prepared to do something positive themselves to mitigate the situation; apart from just political hand wringing.


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Andy Capp
post Nov 8 2015, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Nov 8 2015, 07:24 PM) *
The great thing about most Food Banks is that they are sourced and run totally independently. So, on that basis, what right have we got to criticise their validity? It does mean that the people who support them clearly feel our State welfare provision is inadequate in some areas and more, are prepared to do something positive themselves to mitigate the situation; apart from just political hand wringing.

Hear, hear!
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Simon Kirby
post Nov 8 2015, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Nov 8 2015, 07:24 PM) *
The great thing about most Food Banks is that they are sourced and run totally independently. So, on that basis, what right have we got to criticise their validity? It does mean that the people who support them clearly feel our State welfare provision is inadequate in some areas and more, are prepared to do something positive themselves to mitigate the situation; apart from just political hand wringing.

Yes, hear hear.


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GMR
post Nov 9 2015, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Nov 8 2015, 06:24 PM) *
I see no evidence for that conclusion. The referrals are made by professionals so there is a degree of competent assessment of their acute crisis need to differentiate them from what you describe as "another unemployed person" - though in point of fact I don't believe every claimant is necessarily unemployed. Recipients are also limited to three weeks of support so there is very limited opportunity for those not in acute need to take advantage.





"Competent assessment" only means that they work within a criteria. That means you must be on Income support and can’t manage. That could apply to anybody on Income support. The other point is; you've got two people, say, who are on the same money. One can't manage and the other can. So he goes to a food bank, the other, who is good with money, doesn't. Isn't the problem here the person who can't manage his money? He or she doesn't need a food bank but needs educating on how to use their money. The one who is good with money is going to quickly learn that being thrifty doesn't pay. All he needs to do is play the game to be treated equally. The other point is; a lot of those that are classified as "needy" have mobile phones, Satellites etc. Are they then really in need of a food bank support? I know people who use them and I can tell you that it is either being abused or people are in need, but in-need because they can’t manage their money. Whichever way you look at it they are being abused.







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GMR
post Nov 9 2015, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Nov 8 2015, 07:24 PM) *
The great thing about most Food Banks is that they are sourced and run totally independently. So, on that basis, what right have we got to criticise their validity? It does mean that the people who support them clearly feel our State welfare provision is inadequate in some areas and more, are prepared to do something positive themselves to mitigate the situation; apart from just political hand wringing.





I agree that those food banks are genuine and only wish is to help those in need. But how do we classify those in need? They all basically get the same money so why does one have needs and the other doesn't. Is the answer "thrift?" If the answer if thrift then food banks aren't the answer.

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HeatherW
post Nov 9 2015, 05:23 PM
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I used to work for the social services in London so I still have contacts up there. Social services also deal with food banks. They refer people to them. The only criteria is that they must show they can't manage to get enough food to live on. This isn't hard to do. It is commonly said, but outside the jurisdiction of social services, that it isn't food banks they need, but educating on how to use the money they are getting. I agree that food banks are abused. Those that are good with their money manage without them. But this is also unfair so people are quickly learning how to manipulate the system so that they are included. It them becomes a vicious circle.

Food banks will always be needed. Anything that is free will always be needed and abused. That is a fact of life. The question is what to do about it? Once something like food banks become part of the fabric of society, it becomes ingrained and hard to be stopped. Because it becomes a way of life. sad.gif
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Simon Kirby
post Nov 9 2015, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Nov 9 2015, 05:01 PM) *
"Competent assessment" only means that they work within a criteria. That means you must be on Income support and can’t manage. That could apply to anybody on Income support. The other point is; you've got two people, say, who are on the same money. One can't manage and the other can. So he goes to a food bank, the other, who is good with money, doesn't. Isn't the problem here the person who can't manage his money? He or she doesn't need a food bank but needs educating on how to use their money. The one who is good with money is going to quickly learn that being thrifty doesn't pay. All he needs to do is play the game to be treated equally. The other point is; a lot of those that are classified as "needy" have mobile phones, Satellites etc. Are they then really in need of a food bank support? I know people who use them and I can tell you that it is either being abused or people are in need, but in-need because they can’t manage their money. Whichever way you look at it they are being abused.

This whole argument begs the question, starting from the position that anyone using a food bank is a scrounger and then proving that they're scroungers because they use food banks.


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Mr Brown
post Nov 9 2015, 06:49 PM
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You'll always get people who manipulate the system. For instance I've known a good few 'honest and upright' who'll fatten an insurance claim with no qualms whatsoever - again, because it's so easy. That doesn't mean insurance is wrong because it discourages prudence!
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Simon Kirby
post Nov 9 2015, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Nov 9 2015, 05:04 PM) *
But how do we classify those in need?

Why would you want to do that?


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Andy Capp
post Nov 9 2015, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Nov 9 2015, 05:01 PM) *
"Competent assessment" only means that they work within a criteria. That means you must be on Income support and can’t manage. That could apply to anybody on Income support. The other point is; you've got two people, say, who are on the same money. One can't manage and the other can. So he goes to a food bank, the other, who is good with money, doesn't. Isn't the problem here the person who can't manage his money? He or she doesn't need a food bank but needs educating on how to use their money. The one who is good with money is going to quickly learn that being thrifty doesn't pay. All he needs to do is play the game to be treated equally. The other point is; a lot of those that are classified as "needy" have mobile phones, Satellites etc. Are they then really in need of a food bank support? I know people who use them and I can tell you that it is either being abused or people are in need, but in-need because they can’t manage their money. Whichever way you look at it they are being abused.

If food banks make their donations limited to 3 weeks then it will be a short lived method of cheating the system.

Personally, I couldn't really care if people are 'cheating' the system, in cash terms I suspect the biggest 'crimes' are being carried out by the wealthy.
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GMR
post Nov 9 2015, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Nov 9 2015, 06:47 PM) *
This whole argument begs the question, starting from the position that anyone using a food bank is a scrounger and then proving that they're scroungers because they use food banks.


I am talking about either abusing food banks. I also said that some people have problems with handling their money; is a food bank the answer?

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GMR
post Nov 9 2015, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Nov 9 2015, 07:45 PM) *
If food banks make their donations limited to 3 weeks then it will be a short lived method of cheating the system. Personally.


But cheating nevertheless. Three weeks is still three weeks of free food.




QUOTE
I couldn't really care if people are 'cheating' the system, in cash terms I suspect the biggest 'crimes' are being carried out by the wealthy.


Because somebody else is cheating doesn't make the less cheater right.

By the way; I don't care either. Good luck to them, but that doesn't change my points.

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GMR
post Nov 9 2015, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Nov 9 2015, 06:50 PM) *
Why would you want to do that?


Doesn't society do that as a matter of course, anyway? Otherwise any Tom, **** or Harry will just claim Tax payers money.

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