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Phil_D11102
post Sep 1 2011, 02:30 PM
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-...al-Service.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...l#ixzz1Wi9gHQ3V

Well said. The only thing I would do is make it minimum one year, with the option to sign up for another year.

I like the way it was put that if you don't do it, you lose your benefits.

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Bloggo
post Sep 1 2011, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 1 2011, 03:30 PM) *
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-...al-Service.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...l#ixzz1Wi9gHQ3V

Well said. The only thing I would do is make it minimum one year, with the option to sign up for another year.

I like the way it was put that if you don't do it, you lose your benefits.

I hope that this idea is taken seriously by the government as it would have a positive and beneficial effect on many of the no-hopers who are just blindly messing up their lives with nothing to aspire to and no goals in life to achieve.
However the awarding of benefits could be linked now with the participation in such activities as litter picking, snow clearance, public garden maintenance etc etc.
It just takes a firm and resilient government to bite the bullet and make it happen. These people need to have a purpose in life for their own sake as well as the rest of us that they sponge off.


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Vodabury
post Sep 1 2011, 02:58 PM
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Funny how former Home Sectretary David Blunkett has the answer now. His party was in power for 13 years, so why didn't they introduce this themselves?

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Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2011, 03:00 PM
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This'll cost at least £800.00 per person a month. ~ £720,000,000.00 a month if 900,000 signed up, which is a total cost of £6,480,000,000.00.

Hmm.
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Phil_D11102
post Sep 1 2011, 03:05 PM
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I think this is a great opportunity to have young people learn a skill.

QUOTE
This'll cost at least £800.00 per person a month. ~ £720,000,000.00 a month if 900,000 signed up, which is a total cost of £6,480,000,000.00


How much will be taken in from taxes if they are getting minimum wage? How much does it cost to police these folks when there just sitting on park benches doing nothing? What was the cost of the riots and subsequent court cases and keeping them in prison? How much more cost effective could it be if alot of urban renewal projects were done by these kids, as well as more imaginitve.

There is a lot more pluses than minuses.

As for why no political party does anything of use while there in office, they just want to enjoy their victory and plan for the next election.
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Bloggo
post Sep 1 2011, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Vodabury @ Sep 1 2011, 03:58 PM) *
Funny how former Home Sectretary David Blunkett has the answer now. His party was in power for 13 years, so why didn't they introduce this themselves?

Oh I think Jacqui Smith tried to initiate a similar scheme by getting some offenders to work in her garden but it did not quite work out for her.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Sep 1 2011, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 1 2011, 04:00 PM) *
This'll cost at least £800.00 per person a month. ~ £720,000,000.00 a month if 900,000 signed up, which is a total cost of £6,480,000,000.00.

Hmm.


Perhaps we should not have bailed out just one bank!
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Bloggo
post Sep 1 2011, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (Vodabury @ Sep 1 2011, 03:58 PM) *
Funny how former Home Sectretary David Blunkett has the answer now. His party was in power for 13 years, so why didn't they introduce this themselves?

Not really as it seems that political parties seem to put party policy and party loyalty before the needs of their country.
They could easily work together on a nationwide project like this and allow each other a little slack should there be problems however it would seem that ego and dogma get in the way.
Oh for some common sense and cooperation between them.


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Vodabury
post Sep 1 2011, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Bloggo @ Sep 1 2011, 04:14 PM) *
Not really as it seems that political parties seem to put party policy and party loyalty before the needs of their country.
They could easily work together on a nationwide project like this and allow each other a little slack should there be problems however it would seem that ego and dogma get in the way.
Oh for some common sense and cooperation between them.


I was a little tongue in cheek :j

But I agree, it would require full cross-party co-operation and support, but some issues are politically too useful come election time. For Labour, promises to deal with "nasty Tory benefit cuts" will always win them a tranche of votes.

Rgds
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Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2011, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
I think this is a great opportunity to have young people learn a skill.

Picking litter, cleaning park benches?

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
How much will be taken in from taxes if they are getting minimum wage?

Nothing except the VAT they pay.

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
How much does it cost to police these folks when there just sitting on park benches doing nothing?

All 900,000 kids are not sat on park benches being policed. You complained that there are no police about, so it stands to reason that it doesn't cost anything to police these people. The annual UK police budget is around £9 Billion.

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
What was the cost of the riots and subsequent court cases and keeping them in prison?

What, the 2,000 people caught? One estimate I read was for the riots to cost around £100,000,000. It would seem that people with gainful looted as well as the unemployed, so it is not certain that 9 months National Service would stop rioters and looters.

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
How much more cost effective could it be if alot of urban renewal projects were done by these kids, as well as more imaginitve.

What, with their skill set at 16?

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
There is a lot more pluses than minuses.

Lots of 'pluses' doesn't always mean worthy, nor financially viable.

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
As for why no political party does anything of use while there in office, they just want to enjoy their victory and plan for the next election.

So we are stuck with it then?


I think it is a good idea, but is uncosted and probably unworkable. It would only last 9 months, so what would happen then, -£6.5 billion later (the current education budget is around £90 Billion per year)? These things seem good in theory, but start to unravel when one puts numbers to things.
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user23
post Sep 1 2011, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
How much does it cost to police these folks when there just sitting on park benches doing nothing?
Zero. Sitting on a park bench doing nothing isn't a crime.
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Dodgys smarter b...
post Sep 1 2011, 08:53 PM
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Great stuff guys, keep it up,
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Dodgys smarter b...
post Sep 1 2011, 09:04 PM
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Blunketts got earn his Mail retainer somehow. Funny he never mentioned this when he had some power.
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Vodabury
post Sep 1 2011, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (Bloggo @ Sep 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
Oh I think Jacqui Smith tried to initiate a similar scheme by getting some offenders to work in her garden but it did not quite work out for her.


I thought it was a spare bedroom she had decorated? This would seem of type as didn't she have another problem with a spare bedroom at her sister's house?
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Phil_D11102
post Sep 2 2011, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE
How much does it cost to police these folks when there just sitting on park benches doing nothing?
Zero. Sitting on a park bench doing nothing isn't a crime


It's their boredom that leads to trouble.

QUOTE
I think this is a great opportunity to have young people learn a skill.

Picking litter, cleaning park benches?


How about landscape gardening, santitation skills, and to take it one step further apprenticeships in painting and decorating, construction, plumbing and electriction. What about possible ancillary skills such as health and safety and first aid. Don't look at the surface, what more can you make of it.

QUOTE
How much will be taken in from taxes if they are getting minimum wage?

Nothing except the VAT they pay.


I am sure when they progress up and from the national service they will earn more.

QUOTE
What, with their skill set at 16?


Alot more than you give them credit for. This is an opportunity to tap undiscovered talents and skills.

QUOTE
I think it is a good idea, but is uncosted and probably unworkable. It would only last 9 months, so what would happen then, -£6.5 billion later (the current education budget is around £90 Billion per year)? These things seem good in theory, but start to unravel when one puts numbers to things.


The gov't took a risk bailing out the banks, but didn't do squat for the people. This is an opportunity to do something for the age group that is largest in terms of unemployment. How much of that 90 billion is being spent on kids who should be in education, but is not.


Being fearful of taking a risk on the future of the nation is worse than the kids rioting. It's worse because you are not willing to invest in either them or the nation at large.

If these kids could work along council workers, contractors and charities, how much better would the country be for it. If your waiting time to have you council house repaired dropped down to 1 or 2 days, wouldn't that be great. If your parks are cleaner with facilites that have been repaired and repainted, wouldn't the community use them more. If your roads are in a better state of repair, would you not be happier. If your son or daughter could get out of the benefits trap that you have been in, would you not sleep better at night.

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Andy Capp
post Sep 2 2011, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 02:11 PM) *
It's their boredom that leads to trouble.

For a minority of kids.

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 02:11 PM) *
How about landscape gardening, santitation skills, and to take it one step further apprenticeships in painting and decorating, construction, plumbing and electriction. What about possible ancillary skills such as health and safety and first aid. Don't look at the surface, what more can you make of it.

A full blown apprenticeship? A lot more than £6billion then. And to be blunt, only a minority of the 900,000 would be capable and willing to be a decorator, plumber, electrician, etc...

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 02:11 PM) *
I am sure when they progress up and from the national service they will earn more.

Doing what. All, those jobs have gone to next years apprenticeships.

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 02:11 PM) *
Alot more than you give them credit for. This is an opportunity to tap undiscovered talents and skills.

Using Facebook maybe.

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 02:11 PM) *
The gov't took a risk bailing out the banks, but didn't do squat for the people. This is an opportunity to do something for the age group that is largest in terms of unemployment. How much of that 90 billion is being spent on kids who should be in education, but is not.

£90billion is the cost now. You propose adding vastly to this, year on year. Where does the money come from?

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 02:11 PM) *
Being fearful of taking a risk on the future of the nation is worse than the kids rioting. It's worse because you are not willing to invest in either them or the nation at large.

The problem's bigger than that. There isn't the meaningful work for them (and others, like middle-aged people) to do.

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 02:11 PM) *
If these kids could work along council workers, contractors and charities, how much better would the country be for it. If your waiting time to have you council house repaired dropped down to 1 or 2 days, wouldn't that be great. If your parks are cleaner with facilites that have been repaired and repainted, wouldn't the community use them more. If your roads are in a better state of repair, would you not be happier. If your son or daughter could get out of the benefits trap that you have been in, would you not sleep better at night.

It comes down to where does the £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ come from.
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Phil_D11102
post Sep 2 2011, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE
The problem's bigger than that. There isn't the meaningful work for them (and others, like middle-aged people) to do.


And then you wonder why the kids won't work. While I enjoy my job, is it as meaningful and fulfilling as I would like it to be? Do I quit and go on benefits? No, its a job. Stacking shelves may not be fulfilling, but it's gotta be better than not working at all.

If everyone waits on their "dream" jobs, how high will unemployment be?

BTW - someone should put a bench in front of your house, and then well see how quickly you would want those kids moved on just for being noisy. You would be wondering why there isn't something more important they could be doing, like being on Facebook.
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Andy Capp
post Sep 2 2011, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 04:47 PM) *
And then you wonder why the kids won't work. While I enjoy my job, is it as meaningful and fulfilling as I would like it to be? Do I quit and go on benefits? No, its a job. Stacking shelves may not be fulfilling, but it's gotta be better than not working at all.

You obviously are not aware that kids don't get benefits. How many 'shelf stacking' jobs can you point to?

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 04:47 PM) *
If everyone waits on their "dream" jobs, how high will unemployment be?

So we have 900,000 shelf stacking-like job vacancies, or better, do we?

QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Sep 2 2011, 04:47 PM) *
BTW - someone should put a bench in front of your house, and then well see how quickly you would want those kids moved on just for being noisy. You would be wondering why there isn't something more important they could be doing, like being on Facebook.

They'll only be classified noisy if it went into the night (when they wouldn't be working).

The thing is Phil, I agree we should get the young (and other age groups) trained, but the cost to do so is MASSIVE, and there isn't the work to finance it.
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Dodgys smarter b...
post Sep 2 2011, 04:22 PM
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And the millionaires daughter who was arrested with 5 grands worth of stuff in her car? No benefits to remove there.
Those charged aged between 11 and 15? (numbering over a thousand so far) they aren't on benefits either. No benefits to remove there.

Any idea what proportion of the rioters are actually ON benefits?


Thought not.
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Andy Capp
post Sep 2 2011, 05:10 PM
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I'm all for giving idle hands something to do, but the problem starts when you try to introduce it into a capitalist society. A society where we quite literally have people we don't need and many of which are unemployable.
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