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> The end of this countries world standing, Pending extradition of Garry McKinnon
lordtup
post Jul 25 2009, 08:59 AM
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I, like many others, stand appalled at this countries treatment of Garry McKinnon ( the young man awaiting extradition to the USA charged with computer hacking ).
This has now come to a head because the Honourable Member of Parliament for Thurrock has resigned over the matter.( A man of high principle ).
No one is arguing the fact that he has committed a crime ( though it questions their systems security ),but the crime was committed in this country and therefore should be brought before a British court.
The plain fact is that our Government is so sycophantic towards the bully boy called America that it is doubtful that they get out of bed without the Pentagon's approval.
It shows the complete duplicity of the whole wretched lot of them when we are quite prepared to harbour certain preachers of hate because extradition to their own countries would result in swift justice,yet we kowtow to the Americans because they have some ambiguous stranglehold over us.
I would like to think that all contributors to this forum supports the last ditch efforts of his family to prevent him going to jail in a foreign country for possibly 60 years.
I personally would not have a clue how to hack into another computer,yet I am aware that this post will be monitored and no doubt my details logged as a subversive.


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Hugh Saskin
post Jul 25 2009, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE (lordtup @ Jul 25 2009, 09:59 AM) *
I, like many others, stand appalled at this countries treatment of Garry McKinnon ( the young man awaiting extradition to the USA charged with computer hacking ).
This has now come to a head because the Honourable Member of Parliament for Thurrock has resigned over the matter.( A man of high principle ).
No one is arguing the fact that he has committed a crime ( though it questions their systems security ),but the crime was committed in this country and therefore should be brought before a British court.
The plain fact is that our Government is so sycophantic towards the bully boy called America that it is doubtful that they get out of bed without the Pentagon's approval.
It shows the complete duplicity of the whole wretched lot of them when we are quite prepared to harbour certain preachers of hate because extradition to their own countries would result in swift justice,yet we kowtow to the Americans because they have some ambiguous stranglehold over us.
I would like to think that all contributors to this forum supports the last ditch efforts of his family to prevent him going to jail in a foreign country for possibly 60 years.
I personally would not have a clue how to hack into another computer,yet I am aware that this post will be monitored and no doubt my details logged as a subversive.


Certainly a thought provoking topic not least, to me, the thought that what would be worse -serving a sentence in a British prison or in an American one? Think I know which I'd opt for.
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GMR
post Jul 25 2009, 10:30 AM
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I agree 100% that he shouldn't be going to America at all. If he, an ordinary person, can hack a military installation then the Americans are at fault and not the hacker. What would have happened if it was the Russian's or Chinese?

What also annoys me is that we are so readily prepared to bow to the Americans. This Blair/ Brown government is the worse we've ever had. The last worst government we had was a Labour government.

I hope he doesn't get sent to America and that Brown loses next year in the general election; good riddance to bad rubbish.
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Strafin
post Jul 25 2009, 10:30 AM
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I don't applaud his family's efforts, I think what he did was massivley illegal, stupid, and pompous of him. He is not a young man he is i his forties and an adult. The computer he hacked into was a US one and therefore he should stand trial there. I think you make an intersting point about our extraditions to and from other countries though, and our government seems very contradictory with itself when it comes to these decisions.
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GMR
post Jul 25 2009, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Jul 25 2009, 11:30 AM) *
I don't applaud his family's efforts, I think what he did was massivley illegal, stupid, and pompous of him. He is not a young man he is i his forties and an adult. The computer he hacked into was a US one and therefore he should stand trial there. I think you make an intersting point about our extraditions to and from other countries though, and our government seems very contradictory with itself when it comes to these decisions.



I disagree; he was wrong in what he did but sending him to America is not the answer. He won't get a fair trial and the Americans will use him to set an example. He should be tried in this country.
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Branston Pickle
post Jul 25 2009, 11:12 AM
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People would probably feel a lot less strongly about this if we actually had an equal extradition policy with America. The Americans only have to have reasonable suspicion that the person is guilty. In contrast, if the British want to have someone extradited from America, we have to have a strong suspicion that they are guilty. This is much the same as the case of the NatWest 3 a few months back.
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Hugh Saskin
post Jul 25 2009, 11:33 AM
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Must confess to mixed feelings - it's a choker to have to kowtow to the Yanks, certainly, but then - if he's a crim and they're prepared to keep him under lock and key at their expense, rather than ours, will people be too bothered? As I say, mixed feelings.
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Strafin
post Jul 25 2009, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 25 2009, 11:30 AM) *
If he, an ordinary person, can hack a military installation then the Americans are at fault and not the hacker.


If I can get in undetected then can I rob your house?
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GMR
post Jul 25 2009, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Jul 25 2009, 12:37 PM) *
If I can get in undetected then can I rob your house?



I didn't say I agreed with his crime, only that it should be dealt in this country as he committed the crime here.

If you robbed my house you were caught then you would be prosecuted in this country, not in America.
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Strafin
post Jul 25 2009, 11:58 AM
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Yes you did, "you said if he, an ordinary person, can hack a military installation then the Americans are at fault and not the hacker". If that's not what you meant fine, we'll leave it there. However the crime wasn't commited in this country, it was commited from this country. I think this raises an issue that has not come about before as we haven't had such freedom across the world through the internet before.
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Iommi
post Jul 25 2009, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 25 2009, 12:10 PM) *
I disagree; he was wrong in what he did but sending him to America is not the answer. He won't get a fair trial and the Americans will use him to set an example. He should be tried in this country.

I never realised you held our justice system in such high regard. tongue.gif I see nothing wrong with the extradition system provided it is equitable.
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lordtup
post Jul 25 2009, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Jul 25 2009, 11:30 AM) *
I don't applaud his family's efforts, I think what he did was massivley illegal, stupid, and pompous of him. He is not a young man he is i his forties and an adult. The computer he hacked into was a US one and therefore he should stand trial there. I think you make an intersting point about our extraditions to and from other countries though, and our government seems very contradictory with itself when it comes to these decisions.

Well he's young to me and I accept your point,but this trial will be used for show purposes not enforcement of the law.


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JeffG
post Jul 25 2009, 02:40 PM
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It's worth reading the Wikipedia article about this. Apparently he was searching for evidence of UFOs and anti-gravity technology, so I guess he could plead insanity...
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GMR
post Jul 25 2009, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Jul 25 2009, 12:58 PM) *
Yes you did, "you said if he, an ordinary person, can hack a military installation then the Americans are at fault and not the hacker". If that's not what you meant fine, we'll leave it there. However the crime wasn't commited in this country, it was commited from this country. I think this raises an issue that has not come about before as we haven't had such freedom across the world through the internet before.



OK; maybe I worded it badly. What I meant was that the Americans should have had a better system if it can allow an ordinary hacker to break into top security stuff. If any Tom, Dick or Harry can access their defence installations then the world is in trouble.

If a child abuser hacks into a British web site for child porn - from America, and it has happened - he is then prosecuted in America and not from here. The same if it was the other way around. He committed the crime in this country and this country's laws.
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GMR
post Jul 25 2009, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 25 2009, 01:48 PM) *
I see nothing wrong with the extradition system provided it is equitable.



Which it isn't. wink.gif
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GMR
post Jul 25 2009, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (lordtup @ Jul 25 2009, 02:10 PM) *
Well he's young to me and I accept your point,but this trial will be used for show purposes not enforcement of the law.



Exactly and that is wrong.
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blackdog
post Jul 25 2009, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Branston Pickle @ Jul 25 2009, 12:12 PM) *
This is much the same as the case of the NatWest 3 a few months back.

The NatWest 3 defrauded their employers (a US bank) of £9.5m - pocketing £3.5m themselves. They fought hard against extradition - with all the same arguments - especially how they would be sentenced to a huge sentence in some horrendous US jail.

The result - they were sentenced to 37 months, less than six months into their sentence they were transferred to England - Wandsworth to be specific. No doubt they will be out soon (if they aren't already).

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Strafin
post Jul 26 2009, 11:16 AM
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It's funny that on these boards people are complaining that the courts don't give out proper sentences, law breakers have no respect and know they'll get away it etc etc. On this thread the same people are saying how dare the US try and punish those who have wronged against it.
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GMR
post Jul 26 2009, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Jul 26 2009, 12:16 PM) *
It's funny that on these boards people are complaining that the courts don't give out proper sentences, law breakers have no respect and know they'll get away it etc etc. On this thread the same people are saying how dare the US try and punish those who have wronged against it.



Sorry, but you are misreading it. We have no problem with people being punished; and they should be. However, the motives behind this current debate has nothing to do with justice but with the Americans turning this into a show trial. Also; the crime was committed in this country and he should be tried here. If the situation was reversed the Americans wouldn't send him over here.

So; yes... the courts don't give out proper sentencing.
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lordtup
post Jul 26 2009, 11:29 AM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Jul 26 2009, 12:16 PM) *
It's funny that on these boards people are complaining that the courts don't give out proper sentences, law breakers have no respect and know they'll get away it etc etc. On this thread the same people are saying how dare the US try and punish those who have wronged against it.

Quite simply it's because we don't deal effectively with our miscreants that we resent "johny foreigner" passing severe sentence over our own.
Maybe if we had a penal system akin to the rest of the world the criminal element may be less inclined to kick up a fuss over extradition.


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