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Newbury Today Forum _ Newbury News _ Town Flag
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 25 2013, 08:31 PM
The Town Council is designing itself a flag - see http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2013/flying-the-flag-for-newburys-heritage.
"The design encompasses the town council’s coat of arms, on a field of red and blue, with a wavy line representing the River Kennet running across the middle. It features the golden emblems of Newbury Castle, a teasel, a corn sheaf and two crossed swords."
The central image is Newbury Castle. Castles were the decisive weapon of the 12th century robber-barons and the image represents establishment oppression and the subjugation of the common people by the self-serving corruption of authority. The image of the teasel harks back 500 years to a time when Newbury saw some prosperity in the wool trade, culminating in the town's defining historic event when a local man made a coat, and it reminds us that nothing of any note has happened since. The corn sheaf presumably is a reference to growing stuff, in much the same way as other places grew stuff. The crossed swords remember Newbury as the scene of two indecisive battles in the civil war, neither of which particular involved the people of Newbury, but it does remind us of the importance of resorting to violent and bloody insurrection to solve political differences. Those symbols in yellow atop a red and blue field riven by great wavy crack, symbolising the essential vanity of the parish council and the party-politics that underlies their ineptitude.
So that's nice for the parish council who glory in their establishment authority and marshal past, but how about a flag for the town, forward-looking and celebrating what's excellent and distinctive about the town of Newbury now, in the 21st century.
Posted by: Andy Capp Apr 25 2013, 08:41 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 25 2013, 09:31 PM) 
So that's nice for the parish council who glory in their establishment authority and marshal past, but how about a flag for the town, forward-looking and celebrating what's excellent and distinctive about the town of Newbury now, in the 21st century.
Notwithstanding that Newbury is believed to be a Norman invention!
Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Apr 25 2013, 09:09 PM
Good idea Simon, I would suggest something along the following lines...
A quartered shield, supported on either side by Bollards (rampant) each of the quarters contain representations of pot holes, an ar5e, an elbow and some cracks.
Above should be a picture of a report regarding Victoria Park (locked)
Below should be the new motto, "vindictive, incompetent, indolent".
Also, in the helm should be a picture of a large empty room (to accomodate Swift-Hooks ego) supported by a black dog. (supine)
The field colours should represent the attitude displayed by the town council to West Berks Council, maybe white (surrender) matched with yellow (cowardice).
Posted by: dannyboy Apr 25 2013, 09:13 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 25 2013, 09:31 PM)
The Town Council is designing itself a flag - see http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2013/flying-the-flag-for-newburys-heritage.
"The design encompasses the town council’s coat of arms, on a field of red and blue, with a wavy line representing the River Kennet running across the middle. It features the golden emblems of Newbury Castle, a teasel, a corn sheaf and two crossed swords."
The central image is Newbury Castle. Castles were the decisive weapon of the 12th century robber-barons and the image represents establishment oppression and the subjugation of the common people by the self-serving corruption of authority. The image of the teasel harks back 500 years to a time when Newbury saw some prosperity in the wool trade, culminating in the town's defining historic event when a local man made a coat, and it reminds us that nothing of any note has happened since. The corn sheaf presumably is a reference to growing stuff, in much the same way as other places grew stuff. The crossed swords remember Newbury as the scene of two indecisive battles in the civil war, neither of which particular involved the people of Newbury, but it does remind us of the importance of resorting to violent and bloody insurrection to solve political differences. Those symbols in yellow atop a red and blue field riven by great wavy crack, symbolising the essential vanity of the parish council and the party-politics that underlies their ineptitude.
So that's nice for the parish council who glory in their establishment authority and marshal past, but how about a flag for the town, forward-looking and celebrating what's excellent and distinctive about the town of Newbury now, in the 21st century.
"The design encompasses the town council’s coat of arms, on a field of red and blue, with a wavy line representing the River Kennet running across the middle. It features the golden emblems of Newbury Castle, a teasel, a corn sheaf and two crossed swords."
The central image is Newbury Castle. Castles were the decisive weapon of the 12th century robber-barons and the image represents establishment oppression and the subjugation of the common people by the self-serving corruption of authority. The image of the teasel harks back 500 years to a time when Newbury saw some prosperity in the wool trade, culminating in the town's defining historic event when a local man made a coat, and it reminds us that nothing of any note has happened since. The corn sheaf presumably is a reference to growing stuff, in much the same way as other places grew stuff. The crossed swords remember Newbury as the scene of two indecisive battles in the civil war, neither of which particular involved the people of Newbury, but it does remind us of the importance of resorting to violent and bloody insurrection to solve political differences. Those symbols in yellow atop a red and blue field riven by great wavy crack, symbolising the essential vanity of the parish council and the party-politics that underlies their ineptitude.
So that's nice for the parish council who glory in their establishment authority and marshal past, but how about a flag for the town, forward-looking and celebrating what's excellent and distinctive about the town of Newbury now, in the 21st century.
Did that help any?
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 25 2013, 09:28 PM
QUOTE (Dodgys smarter brother. @ Apr 25 2013, 10:09 PM)
Good idea Simon, I would suggest something along the following lines...
A quartered shield, supported on either side by Bollards (rampant) each of the quarters contain representations of pot holes, an ar5e, an elbow and some cracks.
Above should be a picture of a report regarding Victoria Park (locked)
Below should be the new motto, "vindictive, incompetent, indolent".
Also, in the helm should be a picture of a large empty room (to accomodate Swift-Hooks ego) supported by a black dog. (supine)
The field colours should represent the attitude displayed by the town council to West Berks Council, maybe white (surrender) matched with yellow (cowardice).
A quartered shield, supported on either side by Bollards (rampant) each of the quarters contain representations of pot holes, an ar5e, an elbow and some cracks.
Above should be a picture of a report regarding Victoria Park (locked)
Below should be the new motto, "vindictive, incompetent, indolent".
Also, in the helm should be a picture of a large empty room (to accomodate Swift-Hooks ego) supported by a black dog. (supine)
The field colours should represent the attitude displayed by the town council to West Berks Council, maybe white (surrender) matched with yellow (cowardice).
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 25 2013, 09:31 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 25 2013, 09:41 PM)
Notwithstanding that Newbury is believed to be a Norman invention!
And in the Anarchy the Normans were the establishment.
Posted by: MontyPython Apr 25 2013, 09:51 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 25 2013, 09:31 PM)
The Town Council is designing itself a flag - see http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2013/flying-the-flag-for-newburys-heritage.
"The design encompasses the town council’s coat of arms, on a field of red and blue, with a wavy line representing the River Kennet running across the middle. It features the golden emblems of Newbury Castle, a teasel, a corn sheaf and two crossed swords, and the head of Simon Kirby below- with the motto 'That'll teach the little b*st*rd' beneath."
Posted by: On the edge Apr 25 2013, 09:55 PM
....and we wonder why people are so disillusioned with politics. So, there is so little business to occupy our Town Councillors they can spend time and money designing a flag - wow. The only good thing is that this proves Newbury does not need a Town Council.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 25 2013, 10:00 PM
QUOTE (MontyPython @ Apr 25 2013, 10:51 PM)
"The design encompasses the town council’s coat of arms, on a field of red and blue, with a wavy line representing the River Kennet running across the middle. It features the golden emblems of Newbury Castle, a teasel, a corn sheaf and two crossed swords, and the head of Simon Kirby below- with the motto 'That'll teach the little b*st*rd' beneath."
Posted by: Andy Capp Apr 26 2013, 08:36 AM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 25 2013, 10:31 PM)
And in the Anarchy the Normans were the establishment.
The original tyranny.
Posted by: NWNREADER Apr 26 2013, 01:17 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 25 2013, 10:31 PM)
And in the Anarchy the Normans were the establishment.
Why should someone's name determine their place in the heirarchy? I know a Mrs Norman who is not at all a tyrant, and as for poor old Norman Wisdom.......
Posted by: dannyboy Apr 26 2013, 01:20 PM
William of Normandy called muster & inspected 7500 Normans in one of the most confusing roll calls in military history.
Posted by: Cognosco Apr 26 2013, 04:13 PM
QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 25 2013, 10:55 PM)
....and we wonder why people are so disillusioned with politics. So, there is so little business to occupy our Town Councillors they can spend time and money designing a flag - wow. The only good thing is that this proves Newbury does not need a Town Council.
Err hasn't most of Newbury been given away? Why would we now need a flag?
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 26 2013, 06:44 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 26 2013, 09:36 AM)
The original tyranny.
Very much so. It's refreshingly honest of the town council to recruit the image of that tyranny, and not a little ironic that any evidence of the castle is not available to the public.
Posted by: NWNREADER Apr 26 2013, 07:35 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Apr 26 2013, 02:20 PM)
William of Normandy called muster & inspected 7500 Normans in one of the most confusing roll calls in military history.
Shades of Spartacus!
Posted by: blackdog Apr 26 2013, 07:46 PM
QUOTE (Cognosco @ Apr 26 2013, 05:13 PM)
Err hasn't most of Newbury been given away? Why would we now need a flag?
All of Newbury that belonged to Newbury was given away in 1974 - to Newbury District Council. Can't see what having a flag or not has to do with it?
Posted by: Cognosco Apr 27 2013, 05:11 PM
QUOTE (blackdog @ Apr 26 2013, 08:46 PM)
All of Newbury that belonged to Newbury was given away in 1974 - to Newbury District Council. Can't see what having a flag or not has to do with it?
Just thought that if Newbury no longer belongs to the taxpayer (think Parkway, Market Street etc.) why pay for a town flag. I would have thought the Standard Life Logo and other owners Logo's would be more appropriate and of course they would pay for the flag?
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 27 2013, 06:07 PM
To be honest I quite like the idea of a Newbury flag. My complaint is that what the town council have created isn't a flag to represent and celebrate Newbury, but it's a flag that celebrates the town council, a council that is secretive, arrogant, useless, and vindictive, and the flag's symbolism represents that well, but as a flag for the town it's complete rubbish.
I understand the comments about the cost, but for me this is exactly the kind of thing the town council should be getting involved in, though as always they failed to engage the community in the project and just did it themselves. Badly. A town flag isn't an essential public service, but it can be a useful symbol to rally civic pride, just like a town mayor, or cheese-rolling competition, or hobby horse, or bonfire parade, or most other pageant you care to mention.
It's a shame that the Newbury Society don't create a Newbury Flag, celebrating Newbury's cultural identity and local distinctiveness. They have as much standing as the town council, if not more, so any flag they produced would have just as much credibility.
Posted by: On the edge Apr 27 2013, 07:14 PM
Must admit I'm not convinced we need a flag BUT if the Council had gone about it the way you suggest and properly involved the community; Newbury Society, local Arts College, etc. etc. they would probably have got the job done for nothing, been provided with a real rationale for its design and, most of all, generated some significant community involvement and civic pride. Instead they've chosen to make themselves a financially incontinent laughing stock.
Posted by: Andy Capp Apr 27 2013, 09:44 PM
I surprised that Simon is such a flag enthusiast, considering what they represent and their original purpose. Equally, has the council got nothing better to do with their time and money?
Posted by: motormad Apr 27 2013, 09:49 PM
A flag costs £15 to make and can be designed in a web graphics designers spare in-hours working time in a week.
Posted by: Andy Capp Apr 27 2013, 10:02 PM
QUOTE (motormad @ Apr 27 2013, 10:49 PM)
A flag costs £15 to make and can be designed in a web graphics designers spare in-hours working time in a week.
Sure, if you want one that looks like it has, but I'm sure Mr Swift-Hook et al. will find a way to make it more expensive.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 27 2013, 10:43 PM
QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 27 2013, 08:14 PM)
Must admit I'm not convinced we need a flag BUT if the Council had gone about it the way you suggest and properly involved the community; Newbury Society, local Arts College, etc. etc. they would probably have got the job done for nothing, been provided with a real rationale for its design and, most of all, generated some significant community involvement and civic pride.
It really is an excellent opportunity for all of those things isn't it.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 27 2013, 11:18 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 27 2013, 10:44 PM)
I surprised that Simon is such a flag enthusiast, considering what they represent and their original purpose.
I like flags, they're a colourful and fun way of asserting and celebrating identity. For sure, despotic ideas have also been promoted and identified with flags, but my feeling is that celebrating the positive aspects of identity, culture, and belonging is a good thing. Newbury is the town where I live and I want to celebrate its culture and distinctiveness.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 27 2013, 11:22 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 27 2013, 11:02 PM)
Sure, if you want one that looks like it has, but I'm sure Mr Swift-Hook et al. will find a way to make it more expensive.
It's almost £200 just for the planning permission to fly it from the town hall - assuming WBC grants them permission.
Posted by: Andy Capp Apr 28 2013, 07:23 AM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 28 2013, 12:18 AM)
I like flags, they're a colourful and fun way of asserting and celebrating identity. For sure, despotic ideas have also been promoted and identified with flags, but my feeling is that celebrating the positive aspects of identity, culture, and belonging is a good thing. Newbury is the town where I live and I want to celebrate its culture and distinctiveness.
They are colourful, but I think flags represent dominion and conflict.
Posted by: NWNREADER Apr 28 2013, 09:42 AM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 28 2013, 08:23 AM)
They are colourful, but I think flags represent dominion and conflict.
You do? The Swiss flag (a country which has never gone to war)?
Posted by: user23 Apr 28 2013, 09:44 AM
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 28 2013, 10:42 AM)
You do? The Swiss flag (a country which has never gone to war)?
What about the flag of the Red Cross, also?
Posted by: Andy Capp Apr 28 2013, 09:53 AM
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 28 2013, 10:42 AM)
You do? The Swiss flag (a country which has never gone to war)?
That depends on what you call Switzerland, but it still represents dominion. But of course, there will be examples of flags of peace, but I talking about what their primary use has been.
QUOTE (user23 @ Apr 28 2013, 10:44 AM)
What about the flag of the Red Cross, also?
Do you know what inspired the Red Cross movement?
Posted by: NWNREADER Apr 28 2013, 10:14 AM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 28 2013, 10:53 AM)
That depends on what you call Switzerland, but it still represents dominion. But of course, there will be examples on flags of peace, but I talking about what their primary use has been.
Do you know what inspired the Red Cross movement?
Do you know what inspired the Red Cross movement?
1. The Swiss Confederation borders have barely changed since the Cantons came together (not always in peace) in 1848, after 500 years of broad co-operation.
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Red_Cross_and_Red_Crescent_Movement does for me......
I always believed the prime purpose of an identifier was 'here I am' as much as 'this is mine, stay away'.
Posted by: Andy Capp Apr 28 2013, 11:00 AM
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 28 2013, 11:14 AM)
1. The Swiss Confederation borders have barely changed since the Cantons came together (not always in peace) in 1848, after 500 years of broad co-operation.
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Red_Cross_and_Red_Crescent_Movement does for me......
I always believed the prime purpose of an identifier was 'here I am' as much as 'this is mine, stay away'.
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Red_Cross_and_Red_Crescent_Movement does for me......
I always believed the prime purpose of an identifier was 'here I am' as much as 'this is mine, stay away'.
Don't be an aerosol Newbs.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 28 2013, 06:06 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 28 2013, 08:23 AM)
They are colourful, but I think flags represent dominion and conflict.
Yes, flags have been used to do that, but as User illustrates flags have been used positively too. I think you're confusing the message for the messenger. Flags are just a means of asserting a message. It happens that sometimes the message is pugnacious, hateful or domineering, but the message can also be one of belonging, inclusivity, distinctiveness, respect, and pride. I accept that people can be offended or challenged when others assert their identity, belief, affiliation, loyalty, admiration, support, etc by flag or any other means, but I believe in qualified freedom of expression, and I don't accept that flying a flag that celebrates Newbury's excellence and distinctiveness can reasonably cause offence.
Though it does depend on the flag, and the design that the town council have come up with doesn't celebrate Newbury's excellence and distinctiveness, it asserts the tyranny, fogyism, and crapulence of the town council, and that's just rubbish.
So I really like the idea of a flag to celebrate what's good about Newbury, and I think the Newbury Society should engage the local schools and colleges and come up with a great one.
Posted by: Squelchy Apr 28 2013, 08:22 PM
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 28 2013, 10:42 AM)
You do? The Swiss flag (a country which has never gone to war)?
*cough*
1460 Swiss Conquest of the Thurgau
1468 Swiss-Habsburg War
1474-1477 Burgundian War
1499 Swabian War
1499-1504 Milanese and Neapolitan War
1508-1509 War of the League of Cambrai
1510-1516 War of the Holy League
1513 Luzern Peasant War
1529 First War of Kappel War between Zürich and the
Five Cantons
1531 Second War of Kappel War between Zürich and the Five Cantons
1536 Bernese Conquest of Geneva
1563-1700
1620-1637 Graubünden Troubles
1653 Swiss Peasant War Peasant Rebellion against overtaxation, starting in Luzern, spreading into Bern, Solothurn, Basel
1656 First War of Villmergen Swiss civil war fought between Reformed, Catholic cantons
1712 Second War of Villmergen Swiss civil war fought between Reformed, Catholic cantons
1789-1815 ..... go to narrative history of Switzerland Helvetic Republic, 1798-1803, 1803-1815
1799-1801 Second War of the Coalition , Switzerland battleground
1802 Swiss Rebellion Uprising of traditionally dominant cantons against Helvetic Republic
1847 Sonderbund War, Swiss civil war, fought between League of Catholic cantons and Federation
But apart from that, you're dead right as usual
Posted by: pbonnay Apr 29 2013, 05:29 PM
We already have "The Newbury Coat". Do we need a flag as well?
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 29 2013, 05:52 PM
QUOTE (pbonnay @ Apr 29 2013, 06:29 PM)
We already have "The Newbury Coat". Do we need a flag as well?
The richer the cultural identity of Newbury the more the community benefits. The 50's provincial market town has gone, we're not that any more, and if we don't discover our new identity and celebrate what it is that makes Newbury great and unique in the 21st Century then we'll be just another clone town. Life is more than shops and work.
A flag in itself doesn't change anything, but the process of creating the flag can galvanise community involvement and inclusion, and those are the things that really matter.
Posted by: Cognosco Apr 29 2013, 06:04 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 29 2013, 06:52 PM)
The richer the cultural identity of Newbury the more the community benefits. The 50's provincial market town has gone, we're not that any more, and if we don't discover our new identity and celebrate what it is that makes Newbury great and unique in the 21st Century then we'll be just another clone town. Life is more than shops and work.
A flag in itself doesn't change anything, but the process of creating the flag can galvanise community involvement and inclusion, and those are the things that really matter.
A flag in itself doesn't change anything, but the process of creating the flag can galvanise community involvement and inclusion, and those are the things that really matter.
What with granite paving sets and new shopping centres with chain stores.......
Well involving the community and inclusion NTC definitely does not do.
Posted by: pbonnay Apr 29 2013, 06:16 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 29 2013, 06:52 PM)
The richer the cultural identity of Newbury the more the community benefits. The 50's provincial market town has gone, we're not that any more, and if we don't discover our new identity and celebrate what it is that makes Newbury great and unique in the 21st Century then we'll be just another clone town. Life is more than shops and work.
A flag in itself doesn't change anything, but the process of creating the flag can galvanise community involvement and inclusion, and those are the things that really matter.
A flag in itself doesn't change anything, but the process of creating the flag can galvanise community involvement and inclusion, and those are the things that really matter.
So, following the logic of your argument, a flag should be redesigned every few years to reflect changes in the town?
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 29 2013, 06:17 PM
QUOTE (Cognosco @ Apr 29 2013, 07:04 PM)
What with granite paving sets and new shopping centres with chain stores.......
Well involving the community and inclusion NTC definitely does not do.
Well involving the community and inclusion NTC definitely does not do.
Exactly. Worse than that, NTC actively crushes grass-roots community activity, but we get the democracy we deserve. I don't see anything stopping Newbury becoming a clone town. Like Plato says: "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 29 2013, 06:26 PM
QUOTE (pbonnay @ Apr 29 2013, 07:16 PM)
So, following the logic of your argument, a flag should be redesigned every few years to reflect changes in the town?
No reason why a town shouldn't redesign its flag every couple of years, but I'm just thinking about this time round.
Posted by: pbonnay Apr 29 2013, 06:42 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 29 2013, 07:26 PM)
No reason why a town shouldn't redesign its flag every couple of years, but I'm just thinking about this time round.
If a flag is to have any serious meaning, then it should be able to withstand the test of time - not be some tawdry banner to suit the views of the few who are alive today.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 29 2013, 06:59 PM
QUOTE (pbonnay @ Apr 29 2013, 07:42 PM)
If a flag is to have any serious meaning, then it should be able to withstand the test of time - not be some tawdry banner to suit the views of the few who are alive today.
I don't know where you're coming from with all of that. A town flag's meaning isn't particularly serious is it? Isn't it just a celebration of the town's cultural identity and local distinctiveness? You've offered no support for your argument that the design should "withstand the test of time", whatever that means, and I don't understand what design you think to be "tawdry". Any design is always going to be the creation of "the few who are alive today", unless you have a time machine to collect a historically representative committee like Bill and Ted did.
What's your point?
Posted by: NWNREADER Apr 30 2013, 04:35 AM
QUOTE (Squelchy @ Apr 28 2013, 09:22 PM)
*cough*
1460 Swiss Conquest of the Thurgau
1468 Swiss-Habsburg War
1474-1477 Burgundian War
1499 Swabian War
1499-1504 Milanese and Neapolitan War
1508-1509 War of the League of Cambrai
1510-1516 War of the Holy League
1513 Luzern Peasant War
1529 First War of Kappel War between Zürich and the
Five Cantons
1531 Second War of Kappel War between Zürich and the Five Cantons
1536 Bernese Conquest of Geneva
1563-1700
1620-1637 Graubünden Troubles
1653 Swiss Peasant War Peasant Rebellion against overtaxation, starting in Luzern, spreading into Bern, Solothurn, Basel
1656 First War of Villmergen Swiss civil war fought between Reformed, Catholic cantons
1712 Second War of Villmergen Swiss civil war fought between Reformed, Catholic cantons
1789-1815 ..... go to narrative history of Switzerland Helvetic Republic, 1798-1803, 1803-1815
1799-1801 Second War of the Coalition , Switzerland battleground
1802 Swiss Rebellion Uprising of traditionally dominant cantons against Helvetic Republic
1847 Sonderbund War, Swiss civil war, fought between League of Catholic cantons and Federation
But apart from that, you're dead right as usual
1460 Swiss Conquest of the Thurgau
1468 Swiss-Habsburg War
1474-1477 Burgundian War
1499 Swabian War
1499-1504 Milanese and Neapolitan War
1508-1509 War of the League of Cambrai
1510-1516 War of the Holy League
1513 Luzern Peasant War
1529 First War of Kappel War between Zürich and the
Five Cantons
1531 Second War of Kappel War between Zürich and the Five Cantons
1536 Bernese Conquest of Geneva
1563-1700
1620-1637 Graubünden Troubles
1653 Swiss Peasant War Peasant Rebellion against overtaxation, starting in Luzern, spreading into Bern, Solothurn, Basel
1656 First War of Villmergen Swiss civil war fought between Reformed, Catholic cantons
1712 Second War of Villmergen Swiss civil war fought between Reformed, Catholic cantons
1789-1815 ..... go to narrative history of Switzerland Helvetic Republic, 1798-1803, 1803-1815
1799-1801 Second War of the Coalition , Switzerland battleground
1802 Swiss Rebellion Uprising of traditionally dominant cantons against Helvetic Republic
1847 Sonderbund War, Swiss civil war, fought between League of Catholic cantons and Federation
But apart from that, you're dead right as usual
If you research more than the list it soon becomes apparent these 'Wars' are border skirmishes, internal (civil) battles and the purely mercenary activities (good business) for which the Swiss Guard are still famous. Even the 'War' against Burgundy only involved the border Canton Vaud which was disputed with Burgundy-occupies Savoy. Switzerland fiercely defends its borders and the members of the Confederation. It also (has) provided mercenaries. It has not, as best I and my Swiss friends know, gone to war in the way most other European Countries have - for the expansion of Empires, to secure regime change etc.
Posted by: dannyboy Apr 30 2013, 11:24 AM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 29 2013, 07:17 PM)
Exactly. Worse than that, NTC actively crushes grass-roots community activity, but we get the democracy we deserve. I don't see anything stopping Newbury becoming a clone town. Like Plato says: "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."
That is what people want.
It is democracy. It isn't any less democratic just because you don't like it.
Posted by: dannyboy Apr 30 2013, 11:29 AM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 29 2013, 07:59 PM)
I don't know where you're coming from with all of that. A town flag's meaning isn't particularly serious is it? Isn't it just a celebration of the town's cultural identity and local distinctiveness? You've offered no support for your argument that the design should "withstand the test of time", whatever that means, and I don't understand what design you think to be "tawdry". Any design is always going to be the creation of "the few who are alive today", unless you have a time machine to collect a historically representative committee like Bill and Ted did.
What's your point?
What's your point?
A flag is the pictorial representation of identity. If it is changed every few years, it becomes transient.
Which an identity cannot be.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 30 2013, 11:37 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Apr 30 2013, 12:24 PM)
That is what people want.
It is democracy. It isn't any less democratic just because you don't like it.
It is democracy. It isn't any less democratic just because you don't like it.
Erm, yes. Wasn't it me that said that?
Posted by: dannyboy Apr 30 2013, 11:40 AM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 30 2013, 12:37 PM)
Erm, yes. Wasn't it me that said that?
And you have a monopoly on that line of thought do you?
I didn't realise it wasn't cricket to agree with you.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 30 2013, 12:03 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Apr 30 2013, 12:29 PM)
A flag is the pictorial representation of identity. If it is changed every few years, it becomes transient.
Which an identity cannot be.
Which an identity cannot be.
Yes, it's a symbolic representation of a cultural identity, and if that cultural identity changes, as it will, it could be appropriate to change the flag which symbolises it - like the UK got a new flag in 1801 after the Act of Union, and will get a new flag again if Scotland secede. Commissioning a new flag when the existing one is still a perfectly good cultural icon would be pointless, but if for whatever reason it no longer represented the town's identity then it would be time for a new one.
Anyhoo, we don't yet have a town flag at all, which is the point of the discussion.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 30 2013, 12:03 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Apr 30 2013, 12:40 PM)
I didn't realise it wasn't cricket to agree with you.
Yes you did.
Posted by: dannyboy Apr 30 2013, 12:05 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 30 2013, 01:03 PM)
Yes, it's a symbolic representation of a cultural identity, and if that cultural identity changes, as it will, it could be appropriate to change the flag which symbolises it - like the UK got a new flag in 1801 after the Act of Union, and will get a new flag again if Scotland secede. Commissioning a new flag when the existing one is still a perfectly good cultural icon would be pointless, but if for whatever reason it no longer represented the town's identity then it would be time for a new one.
Anyhoo, we don't yet have a town flag at all, which is the point of the discussion.
Anyhoo, we don't yet have a town flag at all, which is the point of the discussion.
1801 , yes every few years......
Posted by: dannyboy Apr 30 2013, 12:16 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 30 2013, 01:03 PM)
Yes you did.
no, I didn't.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 30 2013, 01:08 PM
Anyhoo, the flag...
What is it about Newbury that makes you proud to live here, and what is it that defines Newbury as distinct from any other town?
Posted by: NWNREADER Apr 30 2013, 01:50 PM
Like the posh clubs - anywhere that has me as a citizen is not worth coming to!!
Posted by: Andy Capp Apr 30 2013, 03:52 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 30 2013, 02:08 PM)
Anyhoo, the flag...
What is it about Newbury that makes you proud to live here, and what is it that defines Newbury as distinct from any other town?
What is it about Newbury that makes you proud to live here, and what is it that defines Newbury as distinct from any other town?
Good point, the flag should be a big white one, or perhaps a white hanky on a stick.
Posted by: Exhausted Apr 30 2013, 04:31 PM
Is this what they are designing ?....
The arms were granted on June 24, 1948.
Across the centre of the shield is a representation of the River Kennet. Above this is a teasle flower. These were once used to unpick wool and represents the historic woollen industry. The garbs are for agriculture. The crossed swords in base stand for the two Battles of Newbury.
The crest depicts Newbury Castle. The mantling is in the blue and gold colours of Berkshire county Council.
The arms are continued by the Newbury Town Council.
|
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 30 2013, 05:18 PM
QUOTE (Exhausted @ Apr 30 2013, 05:31 PM)
Is this what they are designing ?....
I think the idea was that they would come up with a design for a town flag, and they appear to have used the elements of the arms.
If I understand it right, these are now the arms of the town council. http://www.ngw.nl/int/gbr/n/newbury.htm.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 30 2013, 05:54 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 30 2013, 04:52 PM)
Good point, the flag should be a big white one, or perhaps a white hanky on a stick.
But joking aside, what is there about Newbury that we can be proud about? I know as well as anyone that there is stuff about Newbury that is less than glorious, but I would genuinely like to be able to celebrate where I live.
I think the Berkshire flag could even be a starting point because Berkshire is a prosperous county and that prosperity is certainly something to celebrate. Vodafone is also a large part of Newbury's prosperity so maybe there could be a nod towards that.
Posted by: Andy Capp Apr 30 2013, 07:17 PM
Other than a former battle ground, I cannot think of anything to write home about nor be proud of, but paradoxically, that is what I think is good about Newbury. We just get on with our lives. Although it helps if you are not poor: there isn't much for you here if you are.
I see us as the 'Switzerland of the South'. We are largely a theatre for others to exploit for their own endeavours, be it republicanism, telecommunications, international defence, peace protest, or a launch pad for one of the largest aerial assaults in military history.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Apr 30 2013, 09:49 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 30 2013, 08:17 PM)
Other than a former battle ground, I cannot think of anything to write home about nor be proud of, but paradoxically, that is what I think is good about Newbury. We just get on with our lives. Although it helps if you are not poor: there isn't much for you here if you are.
I see us as the 'Switzerland of the South'. We are largely a theatre for others to exploit for their own endeavours, be it republicanism, telecommunications, international defence, peace protest, or a launch pad for one of the largest aerial assaults in military history.
I see us as the 'Switzerland of the South'. We are largely a theatre for others to exploit for their own endeavours, be it republicanism, telecommunications, international defence, peace protest, or a launch pad for one of the largest aerial assaults in military history.
Even the Swiss have their pen knives, holey cheese, and cuckoo clocks, so they have some cultural icons.
Of course there's no reason why we shouldn't create an icon that represents something that Newbury doesn't actually have - for example, what if we were to promote Newbury as the happening place for high-tech industry. We're not, but if we became known for it then it might actually become true - success breeds success.
Posted by: dannyboy May 1 2013, 09:09 AM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 30 2013, 02:08 PM)
Anyhoo, the flag...
What is it about Newbury that makes you proud to live here, and what is it that defines Newbury as distinct from any other town?
What is it about Newbury that makes you proud to live here, and what is it that defines Newbury as distinct from any other town?
nothing.
and I mean that quite sincerley. There is nothing in Newbury which makes it distinct, or makes me proud to live here.
Even the nice bits the town does have are just Georgian vernacular and lots of towns have that.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 1 2013, 09:38 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 1 2013, 10:09 AM)
nothing.
and I mean that quite sincerley. There is nothing in Newbury which makes it distinct, or makes me proud to live here.
Even the nice bits the town does have are just Georgian vernacular and lots of towns have that.
and I mean that quite sincerley. There is nothing in Newbury which makes it distinct, or makes me proud to live here.
Even the nice bits the town does have are just Georgian vernacular and lots of towns have that.
I agree.
But I'd like to persuade you that a modest degree of pride and sense of belonging would be good, and that an appropriate town flag could contribute to that sense of pride and belonging by helping define an iconic brand for the town.
Posted by: Andy Capp May 1 2013, 09:44 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 1 2013, 10:09 AM)
nothing.
and I mean that quite sincerley. There is nothing in Newbury which makes it distinct, or makes me proud to live here.
and I mean that quite sincerley. There is nothing in Newbury which makes it distinct, or makes me proud to live here.
That's how I feel, and it is that 'featurelessness', that perhaps help make it a benign place to live.
Raise a flag and suddenly you are making a 'this is mine' statement.
Posted by: dannyboy May 1 2013, 09:44 AM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 1 2013, 10:38 AM)
I agree.
But I'd like to persuade you that a modest degree of pride and sense of belonging would be good, and that an appropriate town flag could contribute to that sense of pride and belonging by helping define an iconic brand for the town.
But I'd like to persuade you that a modest degree of pride and sense of belonging would be good, and that an appropriate town flag could contribute to that sense of pride and belonging by helping define an iconic brand for the town.
just been done hasn't it?
you can't pleae all the people.....
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 1 2013, 09:45 AM
As a very rough first thought:
The red background symbolizing Vodafone's underpinning of the town's prosperity, the green cross symbolizing Newbury at the meeting of the A4 and A34 (A roads are green on my Google map) giving good access to the rest of the country, the golden field symbolizing prosperity and opportunity, and the sheep looking back to the historic foundation of the town. Like I say, a first thought, but a thought none the less.
Posted by: JeffG May 1 2013, 09:54 AM
Isn't that Shaun?
Posted by: dannyboy May 1 2013, 10:01 AM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 1 2013, 10:44 AM)
That's how I feel, and it is that 'featurelessness', that perhaps help make it a benign place to live.
Raise a flag and suddenly you are making a 'this is mine' statement.
Raise a flag and suddenly you are making a 'this is mine' statement.
surely a this is ours?
Posted by: Andy Capp May 1 2013, 11:39 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 1 2013, 11:01 AM)
surely a this is ours?
Perhaps you could use English to make your point?
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 1 2013, 01:07 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 1 2013, 11:01 AM)
surely a "this is ours"?
Yes. I think that's a good thing.
Posted by: Andy Capp May 1 2013, 01:16 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 1 2013, 02:07 PM)
Yes. I think that's a good thing.
I'm not so sure; it is divisive.
Here's my Idea, although I am not the original artist.
Posted by: NWNREADER May 1 2013, 01:20 PM
Elton John?
Posted by: Andy Capp May 1 2013, 01:21 PM
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ May 1 2013, 02:20 PM)
Elton John?
Close, but no cigar!
Posted by: NWNREADER May 1 2013, 01:27 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 1 2013, 02:21 PM)
Close, but no cigar!
Posted by: Andy Capp May 1 2013, 01:51 PM
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ May 1 2013, 02:27 PM)
Gordon Bennett, have you had all your sense of humour removed recently?
You asked if my reference was to Elton John (Yellow Brick Road), and I said, "(that guess is) close but no cigar. Close but no cigar being a common phrase that means your guess was close but not quite close enough to be correct.
Close, but no cigar: something that you say to someone if what they tell you or what they do is nearly correct' but not completely
Usage notes: A cigar (= a type of thick cigarette) was sometimes used as a prize in games and competitions people paid to play.
'Is his name Howard?' 'Close, but no cigar. It's Harold.'
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 1 2013, 05:26 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 1 2013, 02:16 PM)
I'm not so sure; it is divisive.
I don't understand. Divisive in what way?
Posted by: Andy Capp May 1 2013, 05:29 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 1 2013, 06:26 PM)
I don't understand. Divisive in what way?
As soon as you say this is us or ours, you are either a part of it or not. A division.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 1 2013, 06:13 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 1 2013, 06:29 PM)
As soon as you say this is us or ours, you are either a part of it or not. A division.
Do you though? If I celebrate the town that I live in, does that in any way denigrate those who don't live in the town? I'm not saying that the town that they live in is less worthy, and I'd be more than happy if they wanted to celebrate their own town, so I don't understand how identity is divisive.
I understand how ignorance, fear and prejudice are divisive and how identity can give shape to those feelings, but the problem isn't identity, it's ignorance, fear and prejudice.
What is divisive is social exclusion and alienation - so when a town council of largely middle-aged middle-class establishment party members creates a flag in isolation without any engagement and involvement of the townspeople then that is a problem. It's bad enough that the town council is a secretive and vindictive exclusive society which right-thinking plebs wouldn't presume to question, without them taking to the streets waving their oppressive banners.
So the problem that I see is that almost the whole of the 30,000 population of Newbury don't regard Newbury as "their" town, but just see it as the place where they happen to live, a relatively prosperous dormitory town. That lack of belonging and involvement is corrosive and it would be better to turn it around now before it becomes a problem.
Maybe the Newbury Weekly could be persuaded to host an open town flag competition with the best submissions going to an on-line vote to select the most popular - that really would be a town flag.
Posted by: Andy Capp May 1 2013, 06:35 PM
What is 'the town'? I live closer to 'the town' than my parents, yet they have voting rights in the town, but I don't.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 1 2013, 06:50 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 1 2013, 07:35 PM)
What is 'the town'? I live closer to 'the town' than my parents, yet they have voting rights in the town, but I don't.
Yes, I was thinking about that this morning. Simple answer is to leave it to people to decide for themselves whether Newbury is their town or not - so to my mind it would be entirely reasonable for people living in Shaw, Donnington, Wash Common, Greenham, Enborne, etc to think of Newbury as their town. Counties and parishes are well-define, but whether you identify with a town is a bit more subjective - if you live in the middle of nowhere then maybe you don't feel belonging to any town at all, but if you're just a few miles out in a village you probably still feel an afinity, and where the boundaries of belonging are between Newbury and Hungerford, and Newbury and Thatcham, and even Newbury and Basingstoke, Andover, and Wantage, I couldn't say.
Posted by: JeffG May 1 2013, 07:09 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 1 2013, 07:50 PM)
to my mind it would be entirely reasonable for people living in Shaw, Donnington, Wash Common, Greenham, Enborne, etc to think of Newbury as their town.
Really? The first four are districts within the town boundary, whereas Enborne is a separate village some distance from the town.
(In case of pedantic quibbles about their official status, I am using 'district' as a general term here.)
Posted by: Andy Capp May 1 2013, 07:25 PM
QUOTE (JeffG @ May 1 2013, 08:09 PM)
Really? The first four are districts within the town boundary...
Do you actually mean next to the town boundary? How do you come to your conclusions (I'm not challenging it by the way)?
Posted by: JeffG May 1 2013, 07:46 PM
I have always assumed Newbury to encompass those four areas, and for the town boundary to be marked by the "Welcome to Newbury" signs, such as http://goo.gl/maps/5uY70 on the A339, south of the Monks Lane/Pinchington Lane roundabout. I am sure others can use street view to find the other signs on the approaches to the town.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 1 2013, 10:07 PM
QUOTE (JeffG @ May 1 2013, 08:09 PM)
Really? The first four are districts within the town boundary, whereas Enborne is a separate village some distance from the town.
(In case of pedantic quibbles about their official status, I am using 'district' as a general term here.)
(In case of pedantic quibbles about their official status, I am using 'district' as a general term here.)
Like I said, it's about whether people want to identify with Newbury as their town, and as Enborne parish boundary is only a few hundred yards from my front door I'm guessing that some people from Enborne would certainly identify with Newbury - but it's a complete guess, and I'm not fussed either way.
Put another way, I was born in Southend-on-Sea, and I identify with the town - only I wasn't actually born in Southend, I was born in a village some five miles outside, but Southend is the regional town, and it's the town I call my birth town.
Posted by: dannyboy May 2 2013, 07:51 AM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 1 2013, 12:39 PM)
Perhaps you could use English to make your point?
Surely, a 'this is ours'?
Posted by: dannyboy May 2 2013, 07:56 AM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 1 2013, 02:16 PM)
I'm not so sure; it is divisive.
That isn't always a bad thing. Without it there would be no local inter village sports for instance.
Posted by: Andy Capp May 2 2013, 09:30 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 2 2013, 08:56 AM)
That isn't always a bad thing. Without it there would be no local inter village sports for instance.
People play football under the name of pubs; often participated by people who don't even patronise the place and you don't tend to see flags at those places.
Posted by: dannyboy May 2 2013, 09:37 AM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 2 2013, 10:30 AM)
People play football under the name of pubs; often participated by people who don't even patronise the place and you don't tend to see flags at those places.
Ah, yes the pub team ringer....another thread there.
but the opposing teams will have some kind of distinguishing feature.....team colours, kit etc etc. Or is it just a random melee?
Posted by: Andy Capp May 2 2013, 10:17 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 2 2013, 10:37 AM)
Ah, yes the pub team ringer....another thread there.
but the opposing teams will have some kind of distinguishing feature.....team colours, kit etc etc. Or is it just a random melee?
but the opposing teams will have some kind of distinguishing feature.....team colours, kit etc etc. Or is it just a random melee?
Usually, yes.
Posted by: On the edge May 3 2013, 07:14 AM
During this morning's debate on yesterday's election results. I've not heard one mention of flags. Odd that, given the importance our Town Councillors are putting on the subject.
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 08:50 AM
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 3 2013, 08:14 AM)
During this morning's debate on yesterday's election results. I've not heard one mention of flags. Odd that, given the importance our Town Councillors are putting on the subject.
the only importance I have seen given to the flag is on this forum. If it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't even know any time had ben spent on a flag.
Posted by: JeffG May 3 2013, 09:01 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 09:50 AM)
the only importance I have seen given to the flag is on this forum.
It must be important, though, because there are 5 pages about it.
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 09:07 AM
QUOTE (JeffG @ May 3 2013, 10:01 AM)
It must be important, though, because there are 5 pages about it.
yes to all us scamps on here who have nothing better to do on a glorious late spring morning than make mountains out of molehills.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 3 2013, 09:50 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 09:50 AM)
If it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't even know any time had ben spent on a flag.
If it wasn't for this forum you wouldn't know a whole bunch about what the town council spends our money on. The town council are painfully aware of this, and that's why the town council made my allotment tenancy contingent on my not posting anything critical about them on here. I couldn't accept that censorship, so I lost my allotment. A plague on all their houses.
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 10:00 AM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 3 2013, 10:50 AM)
If it wasn't for this forum you wouldn't know a whole bunch about what the town council spends our money on. The town council are painfully aware of this, and that's why the town council made my allotment tenancy contingent on my not posting anything critical about them on here. I couldn't accept that censorship, so I lost my allotment. A plague on all their houses.
Thing is I don't care what they spend my money on or what they doall day long
All I care about is that for all its niggles Newbury is a pleasant if uninspiring place to live. So some one must be getting things right.
Posted by: Andy Capp May 3 2013, 10:03 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 11:00 AM)
Thing is I don't care what they spend my money on or what they doall day long
All I care about is that for all its niggles Newbury is a pleasant if uninspiring place to live. So some one must be getting things right.
All I care about is that for all its niggles Newbury is a pleasant if uninspiring place to live. So some one must be getting things right.
It might be today, but there are signs that this will not remain, hence the criticisms.
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 10:12 AM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 3 2013, 11:03 AM)
It might be today, but there are signs that this will not remain, hence the criticisms.
what signs??!?
Posted by: NWNREADER May 3 2013, 10:34 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 11:00 AM)
Thing is I don't care what they spend my money on or what they do all day long
If you pay the NTC precept you should care as that is your only way of knowing if your money is being spent appropriately. Even if you can afford to pay there will be some who cannot.....
Always assuming the bad news we get on here is true and accurate
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 10:43 AM
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ May 3 2013, 11:34 AM)
If you pay the NTC precept you should care as that is your only way of knowing if your money is being spent appropriately. Even if you can afford to pay there will be some who cannot.....
Always assuming the bad news we get on here is true and accurate
Always assuming the bad news we get on here is true and accurate
I just walk around the town. It isn't going to the dogs, so therefore my money is spent well.
I notice that the kids play area in Northcroft Park is being completely refurbished for instance. As that is good, positive news, it has, naturally, not had a single mention on this forum.
No doubt it will when, heaven forbid, there is no fence around it. The usual suspects will then take an interest & start moaning about the travesty that has taken place......RG will most likely be flooded with complaints from distraught mothers & will be seeking a public enquiry....
Posted by: Andy Capp May 3 2013, 11:22 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 11:12 AM)
what signs??!?
All that we've bloody debated over the years! Perceived oversized commercial developments, poor road management design, increased population, etc...
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 11:33 AM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 3 2013, 12:22 PM)
All that we've bloody debated over the years! Perceived oversized commercial developments, poor road management design, increased population, etc...
I don't think any of those are portents of social chaos, the breakdown of civilization & the sinking of the town into a feotid miasma.
On the contrary, I have a feeling that the imporved commercial prospects of the town, in the face of a global recession will endear the town to many.
Populations are increasing all over, and the roads are, whilst not perfect they are not that bad either.
If that is all there is to gripe over, it can't be all that bad....
Posted by: Andy Capp May 3 2013, 12:14 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 12:33 PM)
I don't think any of those are portents of social chaos, the breakdown of civilization & the sinking of the town into a feotid miasma.
Nor do I, but it is likely to change the town from what you claim to like about it.
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 12:33 PM)
On the contrary, I have a feeling that the imporved commercial prospects of the town, in the face of a global recession will endear the town to many.
Like those who 'bask in the serenity' of living in Reading, Swindon, and Basingstoke (which seems to be the ambition).
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 12:33 PM)
Populations are increasing all over, and the roads are, whilst not perfect they are not that bad either.
In the world of globe trotting dannyboy, no, but we should not get complacent either.
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 12:33 PM)
If that is all there is to gripe over, it can't be all that bad....
Compared to Reading, Swindon, and Basingstoke; no.
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 12:25 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 3 2013, 01:14 PM)
Nor do I, but it is likely to change the town from what you claim to like about it.
Like those who 'bask in the serenity' of living in Reading, Swindon, and Basingstoke (which seems to be the ambition).
In the world of globe trotting dannyboy, no, but we should not get complacent either.
Compared to Reading, Swindon, and Basingstoke; no.
Like those who 'bask in the serenity' of living in Reading, Swindon, and Basingstoke (which seems to be the ambition).
In the world of globe trotting dannyboy, no, but we should not get complacent either.
Compared to Reading, Swindon, and Basingstoke; no.
We'll all be long dead, even Motormad, by the time Newbury is anything like any of those cities & towns.
A little change is good - The town is better for it. Things must be looking up - several indies have opened in the last month or so ( again not a peep about that here ). Maybe there is increased footfall in town.
Posted by: Andy Capp May 3 2013, 12:30 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 01:25 PM)
We'll all be long dead, even Motormad, by the time Newbury is anything like any of those cities & towns.
A little change is good - The town is better for it.
A little change is good - The town is better for it.
That is a matter of opinion. I know many who don't agree.
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 01:25 PM)
Things must be looking up - several indies have opened in the last month or so ( again not a peep about that here ). Maybe there is increased footfall in town.
I'm surprised an impartial observer like you noticed. I suspect also that many who post here don't know or use the town that much. I don't. Why would anyone here jubilate the opening of a few shops. Whoopy do. It'll be even better if those indies are still here this time next year. Anyway, the quality of living in 'Newbury' isn't just about the prosperity of the the town center.
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 12:44 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 3 2013, 01:30 PM)
That is a matter of opinion. I know many who don't agree.
I'm surprised an impartial observer like you noticed. I suspect also that many who post here don't know or use the town that much. I don't. Why would anyone here jubilate the opening of a few shops. Whoopy do. It'll be even better if those indies are still here this time next year. Anyway, the quality of living in 'Newbury' isn't just about the prosperity of the the town center.
I'm surprised an impartial observer like you noticed. I suspect also that many who post here don't know or use the town that much. I don't. Why would anyone here jubilate the opening of a few shops. Whoopy do. It'll be even better if those indies are still here this time next year. Anyway, the quality of living in 'Newbury' isn't just about the prosperity of the the town center.
why would any one jubilate over the closure of a shop or two - yet that is a staple of this forum.
so you seem to be advocating a stagnant town - one that remains as it was in the 1980s? whilst it is nice to look back with fondness on the 'good old days' in the real modern world, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
I'm impartial yes, but that does not mean I walk around with my eyes closed. I'm impartial because I know that I can't make a difference. So why bother.
They don't use it, but love to abuse it. How very adult of them.
Posted by: Andy Capp May 3 2013, 01:55 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 01:44 PM)
why would any one jubilate over the closure of a shop or two - yet that is a staple of this forum.
so you seem to be advocating a stagnant town - one that remains as it was in the 1980s? whilst it is nice to look back with fondness on the 'good old days' in the real modern world, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
I'm impartial yes, but that does not mean I walk around with my eyes closed. I'm impartial because I know that I can't make a difference. So why bother.
They don't use it, but love to abuse it. How very adult of them.
so you seem to be advocating a stagnant town - one that remains as it was in the 1980s? whilst it is nice to look back with fondness on the 'good old days' in the real modern world, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
I'm impartial yes, but that does not mean I walk around with my eyes closed. I'm impartial because I know that I can't make a difference. So why bother.
They don't use it, but love to abuse it. How very adult of them.
Resorting to strawman fallacies just make your arguments tedious.
Posted by: blackdog May 3 2013, 02:54 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 01:25 PM)
We'll all be long dead, even Motormad, by the time Newbury is anything like any of those cities & towns.
I can remember Basingstoke as a little market town - I suspect Motormad, if he sticks around, will see Newbury/Thatcham expand to a larger size than Basingstoke today.
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 04:27 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 3 2013, 02:55 PM)
Resorting to strawman fallacies just make your arguments tedious.
not half as tedious as the way in which you drag out the same old 'oh it is a strawman fallacy'......
You said you knew many who didn't think the town was better for the changes which have been made. Bearing mind that the changes have been made with minumim disruption to the rest of the town ( unlike Reading, Swindon, Andover, Sailsbury & Basingstoke ) which were all revamped at the cost of the old town, one must assume that ithey'd prefer no change at all.
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 04:29 PM
QUOTE (blackdog @ May 3 2013, 03:54 PM)
I can remember Basingstoke as a little market town - I suspect Motormad, if he sticks around, will see Newbury/Thatcham expand to a larger size than Basingstoke today.
And in those days mums stayed at home, dad worked within 5 miles of where he lived, everyone shopped at the butchers, bakers, greengrocers & went to the nearest seaside resort for their annual wakes week holiday.
Posted by: NWNREADER May 3 2013, 04:32 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 3 2013, 02:55 PM)
Resorting to strawman fallacies just make your arguments tedious.
Strawman fallacies? Are you sure?
http://www.yourstrawman.com
Posted by: Andy Capp May 3 2013, 04:32 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 05:27 PM)
not half as tedious as the way in which you drag out the same old 'oh it is a strawman fallacy'......
OK, perhaps I should use the word misleading, or even lying about what I and others say. Better?
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 05:27 PM)
You said you knew many who didn't think the town was better for the changes which have been made. Bearing mind that the changes have been made with minumim disruption to the rest of the town ( unlike Reading, Swindon, Andover, Sailsbury & Basingstoke ) which were all revamped at the cost of the old town, one must assume that ithey'd prefer no change at all.
Why?
More logical fallacies.
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 04:36 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 3 2013, 05:32 PM)
OK, perhaps I should use the word misleading, or even lying about what I say. Better?
Why? More logical fallacies.
Why? More logical fallacies.
Ah, I see, don't mind change per se, & understand it is required, but want some kind of olde worlde vernacular. As I said, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
Posted by: NWNREADER May 3 2013, 05:12 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 05:36 PM)
Ah, I see, don't mind change per se, & understand it is required, but want some kind of olde worlde vernacular. As I said, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
I can remember when you could - and have change
Posted by: Andy Capp May 3 2013, 05:16 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 05:36 PM)
Ah, I see, don't mind change per se, & understand it is required, but want some kind of olde worlde vernacular. As I said, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
What are you on about?
I think you could start a fight in a phone box!
Posted by: dannyboy May 3 2013, 05:18 PM
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 3 2013, 06:16 PM)
What are you on about?
I think you could start a fight in a phone box!
I think you could start a fight in a phone box!
What Am I on - about my 5th pint.
Posted by: Andy Capp May 3 2013, 05:44 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 06:18 PM)
What Am I on - about my 5th pint.
Yes, so I should be too!
Posted by: On the edge May 3 2013, 06:47 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 10:07 AM)
yes to all us scamps on here who have nothing better to do on a glorious late spring morning than make mountains out of molehills.
The Forum threads were a response to quite a large article in NWN. Naughty - who would expect a local newspaper of record to report the doings of the local council. Wholly agree, as far as the ruling coalition on that council are concerned, we really are scamps and should not be questioning or worse criticising their endeavours. So perhaps the motto ought to be 'know your place'
Posted by: On the edge May 3 2013, 06:56 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 11:43 AM)
I just walk around the town. It isn't going to the dogs, so therefore my money is spent well.
I notice that the kids play area in Northcroft Park is being completely refurbished for instance. As that is good, positive news, it has, naturally, not had a single mention on this forum.
No doubt it will when, heaven forbid, there is no fence around it. The usual suspects will then take an interest & start moaning about the travesty that has taken place......RG will most likely be flooded with complaints from distraught mothers & will be seeking a public enquiry....
I notice that the kids play area in Northcroft Park is being completely refurbished for instance. As that is good, positive news, it has, naturally, not had a single mention on this forum.
No doubt it will when, heaven forbid, there is no fence around it. The usual suspects will then take an interest & start moaning about the travesty that has taken place......RG will most likely be flooded with complaints from distraught mothers & will be seeking a public enquiry....
Just to prove you can't please everyone, I'm not convinced that the developments in Victoria Park are actually an improvement. A large sum was spent removing the nursery school to the edge and there was a massive outcry when a pavilion was proposed. This suggests the people actually wanted to keep the park green and restful. That does not include installing several tons of municipal scrap metal instead. Might as well astro turf the rest and have done with it. Still, the general ambience at least fits with Faraday Road.
Posted by: On the edge May 3 2013, 07:11 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 01:44 PM)
why would any one jubilate over the closure of a shop or two - yet that is a staple of this forum.
so you seem to be advocating a stagnant town - one that remains as it was in the 1980s? whilst it is nice to look back with fondness on the 'good old days' in the real modern world, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
I'm impartial yes, but that does not mean I walk around with my eyes closed. I'm impartial because I know that I can't make a difference. So why bother.
They don't use it, but love to abuse it. How very adult of them.
so you seem to be advocating a stagnant town - one that remains as it was in the 1980s? whilst it is nice to look back with fondness on the 'good old days' in the real modern world, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
I'm impartial yes, but that does not mean I walk around with my eyes closed. I'm impartial because I know that I can't make a difference. So why bother.
They don't use it, but love to abuse it. How very adult of them.
I think that says it all. Many of us remember when we did at least feel we had some influence on local, indeed national decisions, We don't now and that is reflected in the dreadful turnout numbers at elections. Many of us feel we might as well live in a Soviet. For many it was quite pleasant, un stressed job in a factory or office, nice three bed flat in town centre, three paid weeks on the Black Sea every year, kids university fees and living costs paid, good health service and looked after in retirement - only problem, couldn't criticise Government, so what? What goes round comes round.
Posted by: Cognosco May 4 2013, 11:46 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 01:44 PM)
why would any one jubilate over the closure of a shop or two - yet that is a staple of this forum.
so you seem to be advocating a stagnant town - one that remains as it was in the 1980s? whilst it is nice to look back with fondness on the 'good old days' in the real modern world, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
I'm impartial yes, but that does not mean I walk around with my eyes closed. I'm impartial because I know that I can't make a difference. So why bother.
They don't use it, but love to abuse it. How very adult of them.
so you seem to be advocating a stagnant town - one that remains as it was in the 1980s? whilst it is nice to look back with fondness on the 'good old days' in the real modern world, you can't survive on a diet of nostalgia.
I'm impartial yes, but that does not mean I walk around with my eyes closed. I'm impartial because I know that I can't make a difference. So why bother.
They don't use it, but love to abuse it. How very adult of them.
You could if enough people agreed with you and you decided to complain to the council........ ah just day dreaming don't mind me!
Posted by: dannyboy May 6 2013, 01:02 PM
QUOTE (Cognosco @ May 4 2013, 12:46 PM)
You could if enough people agreed with you and you decided to complain to the council........ ah just day dreaming don't mind me!
You mean foist my own ideas on others?
He who shouts loudest....
Posted by: On the edge May 6 2013, 03:06 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 6 2013, 02:02 PM)
You mean foist my own ideas on others?
He who shouts loudest....
He who shouts loudest....
Is that the latest party line? Wondered why it had gone quiet recently!
Posted by: dannyboy May 6 2013, 03:11 PM
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 6 2013, 04:06 PM)
Is that the latest party line? Wondered why it had gone quiet recently!
it is any party line.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 6 2013, 07:42 PM
Anywho, attempt #2 (I don't own the copyright to the coat image and I'm using it for discussion only).
I was rather hoping someone else might fancy a serious attempt at a design.
Posted by: MontyPython May 6 2013, 10:12 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 6 2013, 08:42 PM)
I was rather hoping someone else might fancy a serious attempt at a design.
I would but I am not good at drawing and can't find an image of a Blackdog having a cr*p!
Posted by: MontyPython May 6 2013, 10:21 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 3 2013, 05:27 PM)
........
You said you knew many who didn't think the town was better for the changes which have been made. Bearing mind that the changes have been made with minumim disruption to the rest of the town ( unlike Reading, Swindon, Andover, Sailsbury & Basingstoke ) which were all revamped at the cost of the old town, one must assume that ithey'd prefer no change at all.
You said you knew many who didn't think the town was better for the changes which have been made. Bearing mind that the changes have been made with minumim disruption to the rest of the town ( unlike Reading, Swindon, Andover, Sailsbury & Basingstoke ) which were all revamped at the cost of the old town, one must assume that ithey'd prefer no change at all.
There are many like myself who don't think the changes made are for the better.
I wouldn't agree that the disruption to the town has been minimal, and the footfall figures whilst the work was in progress would suggest that many others agree with that too!
From your statement it appears that you think it strange that people wish to retain historical buildings.
Posted by: dannyboy May 6 2013, 11:02 PM
QUOTE (MontyPython @ May 6 2013, 11:21 PM)
There are many like myself who don't think the changes made are for the better.
I wouldn't agree that the disruption to the town has been minimal, and the footfall figures whilst the work was in progress would suggest that many others agree with that too!
From your statement it appears that you think it strange that people wish to retain historical buildings.
I wouldn't agree that the disruption to the town has been minimal, and the footfall figures whilst the work was in progress would suggest that many others agree with that too!
From your statement it appears that you think it strange that people wish to retain historical buildings.
No, what I said was Newbury managed to get a sizable new build without having to demolish huge chunks of the existing town. So the old Newbury is in effect still there. We just have more of it now.
Posted by: Cognosco May 7 2013, 06:48 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 7 2013, 12:02 AM)
No, what I said was Newbury managed to get a sizable new build without having to demolish huge chunks of the existing town. So the old Newbury is in effect still there. We just have more of it now.
But not for long it is proposed to give another large chunk of it away and we can have more empty shops to "oh" and "ah" over. All that is being done is giving away the town and moving the shopping area's around and leaving desolated areas behind. Still that is the councils vision for you and as you say it is no good protesting as no one is interested are they? You can shout as loud as you like but our local councils appear deaf!
Posted by: dannyboy May 7 2013, 07:14 PM
QUOTE (Cognosco @ May 7 2013, 07:48 PM)
But not for long it is proposed to give another large chunk of it away and we can have more empty shops to "oh" and "ah" over. All that is being done is giving away the town and moving the shopping area's around and leaving desolated areas behind. Still that is the councils vision for you and as you say it is no good protesting as no one is interested are they? You can shout as loud as you like but our local councils appear deaf!
LOL,
desolated areas - wasn't that Parkway before it was developed, never mind the two car parks under provision for development now.
yeah, Newbury is foresaking a council car park, used by council employes to bring more housing to the town. Housing central govt says west berks must build.
Posted by: On the edge May 7 2013, 07:54 PM
Ah! That makes sense, I wondered what had prompted the recently announced car parking review.
Posted by: motormad May 7 2013, 09:21 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 6 2013, 08:42 PM)
I was rather hoping someone else might fancy a serious attempt at a design.
Finland in the Victorian ages?
Posted by: Andy Capp May 7 2013, 10:59 PM
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 7 2013, 08:54 PM)
Ah! That makes sense, I wondered what had prompted the recently announced car parking review.
It would seem that a number of drivers from the south of Newbury are reluctant to use the car parks to the north and west of the town.
It was announced that there would be traffic signal improvements at the Robin Hood giratory, if there was, it wasn't designed to enable better flow of east bound traffic using the A4 coming from Parkway. I expect this to get worse as Newbury to the south of the canal becomes even more populated (Sandleford and the Racecourse) and perhpas drivers for the council offices are displaced from the potential new build at Market Street, are 'forced' to use those car parks.
Posted by: blackdog May 8 2013, 12:19 AM
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 7 2013, 08:54 PM)
Ah! That makes sense, I wondered what had prompted the recently announced car parking review.
There is no parking review. It's a bit of Lib Dem publicity - which means the odds are that Tories will be against it and hence it won't happen.
Posted by: On the edge May 8 2013, 06:29 AM
QUOTE (blackdog @ May 8 2013, 01:19 AM)
There is no parking review. It's a bit of Lib Dem publicity - which means the odds are that Tories will be against it and hence it won't happen.
...and in the fog, the displaced staff car park users can be given free season tickets to fill the adjacent public car parks without us noticing.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 8 2013, 09:37 AM
QUOTE (motormad @ May 7 2013, 10:21 PM)
Finland in the Victorian ages?
I'm not with you.
Posted by: Cognosco May 8 2013, 03:43 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 7 2013, 08:14 PM)
LOL,
desolated areas - wasn't that Parkway before it was developed, never mind the two car parks under provision for development now.
yeah, Newbury is foresaking a council car park, used by council employes to bring more housing to the town. Housing central govt says west berks must build.
desolated areas - wasn't that Parkway before it was developed, never mind the two car parks under provision for development now.
yeah, Newbury is foresaking a council car park, used by council employes to bring more housing to the town. Housing central govt says west berks must build.
Yes another chunk of Newbury given away....not even a £1 for this chunk let alone the other underhand deals that will come to light when it is too late probably. Just what advantage to taxpayers will this bring? More houses you say... and what profit will come the taxpayers way for this give away? I suppose the poor Developer will make a loss as usual?
Posted by: dannyboy May 8 2013, 06:16 PM
QUOTE (Cognosco @ May 8 2013, 04:43 PM)
Yes another chunk of Newbury given away....not even a £1 for this chunk let alone the other underhand deals that will come to light when it is too late probably. Just what advantage to taxpayers will this bring? More houses you say... and what profit will come the taxpayers way for this give away? I suppose the poor Developer will make a loss as usual?
repeating a fallacy does not make it any less untrue you know.
what advantage - more rates, more tax, more people, more business....
Posted by: Cognosco May 8 2013, 06:28 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ May 8 2013, 07:16 PM)
repeating a fallacy does not make it any less untrue you know.
what advantage - more rates, more tax, more people, more business....
what advantage - more rates, more tax, more people, more business....
More demand on services, roads, facilities, infrastructure, which as you well know Newbury has a desperate shortage of, and the main disadvantage of all this is no local Authority that has the capabilities to plan for any of this!
Still there must be some more land within the locale that we can manage to give away?
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 8 2013, 06:46 PM
Sorry to butt in, but if anyone has a serious design for a town flag please do post it - I'll be disappointed if there really isn't any interest in celebrating Newbury with a flag of its own.
Posted by: On the edge May 9 2013, 06:57 AM
As Newbury considers itself an historic town perhaps we ought to capitalise on that. A 'Berkshire Lion central to represent we are all that is left of Berkshire on Royal blue representing the Royal County and our proximity to the extended Royal family. Keep it simple and we'd also be able to sell in the Museum shop.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 9 2013, 07:41 AM
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 9 2013, 07:57 AM)
As Newbury considers itself an historic town perhaps we ought to capitalise on that. A 'Berkshire Lion central to represent we are all that is left of Berkshire on Royal blue representing the Royal County and our proximity to the extended Royal family. Keep it simple and we'd also be able to sell in the Museum shop.
Cheers OTE
The image of the Lion is available on http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Heraldic_lion_passant.svg and was created by http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shadowxfox and is licensed under the Creative Commons http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en Unported license.
Posted by: JeffG May 9 2013, 08:41 AM
Or in other words: "Azure a lion passant argent tongue and claws gules"
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 9 2013, 09:07 AM
QUOTE (JeffG @ May 9 2013, 09:41 AM)
Or in other words: "Azure a lion passant argent tongue and claws gules"
Very good, someone knows their stuff. Will you have a stabe at a design yourself?
Here's a better go at OtE's design, but more "Newbury":
The image of the Lion is available on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lion_Dormant.svg and was created by http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Sodacan and is licensed under the Creative Commons http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en Unported license.
Posted by: JeffG May 9 2013, 09:26 AM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 9 2013, 10:07 AM)
Very good, someone knows their stuff. Will you have a stabe at a design yourself?
No, because frankly I don't know what all the fuss is about. Sorry.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 9 2013, 09:30 AM
QUOTE (JeffG @ May 9 2013, 10:26 AM)
No, because frankly I don't know what all the fuss is about. Sorry.
Which fuss? Are you not fussed about celebrating Newbury with a flag of its own, or are you not fussed about the design being imposed without an open competition and public vote?
Posted by: JeffG May 9 2013, 11:13 AM
Sorry, I shouldn't have said "fuss". No, I am not particularly concerned one way or the other whether Newbury has its own flag.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 9 2013, 02:40 PM
QUOTE (JeffG @ May 9 2013, 12:13 PM)
Sorry, I shouldn't have said "fuss". No, I am not particularly concerned one way or the other whether Newbury has its own flag.
Thanks Jeff.
If you'll bear with me a bit longer - my guess is that almost no one cares about Newbury having a flag, but I'd like to change that. I accept that I might actually be wrong, but my instinct is that a town where people celebrate their identity is a happier town than one that doesn't. I understand that people don't care, but can you give me any insight into why they don't care and what might change to allow them to care?
My thoughts are to organise an open competition to choose a town flag - as a kid I'd have entered a design in something like that and I'm hoping the idea would still work - and then an open public vote to select the favourite design. Would anything like that get you interested?
Posted by: blackdog May 9 2013, 03:25 PM
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 9 2013, 07:57 AM)
As Newbury considers itself an historic town perhaps we ought to capitalise on that. A 'Berkshire Lion central to represent we are all that is left of Berkshire on Royal blue representing the Royal County and our proximity to the extended Royal family. Keep it simple and we'd also be able to sell in the Museum shop.
A Berkshire Lion? What happened to the Berkshire Stag? Come to think of it, what happened to Berkshire?
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 9 2013, 03:53 PM
QUOTE (blackdog @ May 9 2013, 04:25 PM)
A Berkshire Lion? What happened to the Berkshire Stag? Come to think of it, what happened to Berkshire?
How about you blackdog, you seem to have some knowledge and interest in Newbury, can you suggest a serious design for a flag to celebrate the town?
Posted by: Exhausted May 9 2013, 05:45 PM
QUOTE (blackdog @ May 9 2013, 04:25 PM)
A Berkshire Lion? What happened to the Berkshire Stag? Come to think of it, what happened to Berkshire?
What's the difference between a stag and a hart. I'm thinking of the White Hart which looks pretty much like the Berkshire Stag.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 9 2013, 06:26 PM
QUOTE (Exhausted @ May 9 2013, 06:45 PM)
What's the difference between a stag and a hart. I'm thinking of the White Hart which looks pretty much like the Berkshire Stag.
It looks like "stag" is a male deer and a "hart" is a stag that's at least five years old and has an impressive set of antlers. The etymology of http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stag is to do with male-ness - Proto-Indo-European *stegʰ-, *stengʰ- (“to sting; rod, blade; sharp, stiff”), and http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hart is to do with the antlers - from Pre-Germanic *k̑erudo, from Proto-Indo-European *ḱóru (“horn”).
The White Hart was the emblem of Richard II.
This is the Michael Garber design for a Berkshire flag:
I've found a reference to the white hart being associated with Herene the Hunter who haunts Windsor Forest so there might be some significance there, but I've also found reference to there being very little documented foklore about Herne the Hunter until some Victorian made it up so that association might be rather bogus.
The whole stag thing might be a bit of an East Berkshire thing with them having Windsor Forest, though I accept that the forest was pretty much continuous along the Kennet Valley as late as the early modern period. Another Berkshire Flag has lions of England with a decidedly Saxon crown which looks to Wessex and Alfred rather than the Norman Richard.
.png/800px-County_Flag_of_Berkshire_(commercial_version).png)
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 9 2013, 06:31 PM
QUOTE (Exhausted @ May 9 2013, 06:45 PM)
What's the difference between a stag and a hart. I'm thinking of the White Hart which looks pretty much like the Berkshire Stag.
How about having a go at a fag design Exhausted?
Posted by: blackdog May 9 2013, 11:56 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 9 2013, 04:53 PM)
How about you blackdog, you seem to have some knowledge and interest in Newbury, can you suggest a serious design for a flag to celebrate the town?
In terms of symbolism I quite like the NTC choice to go with those from the Borough coat of arms. And they have involved the Flag Institute which sounds sensible.
I worry about using current symbolism - such as a mobile phone for instance - because it's all to short term. If Vodafone are still around in another 50 years or so it might make more sense.
However, the NTC flag sounds too busy - too many symbols would clutter the flag. I'd stick with the castle symbolism that was used by the Borough for a couple of hundred years or more (I even quite like that it is almost certainly totally spurious).
Your second design with the castle logo rather than the coat would be fine by me.
Posted by: On the edge May 10 2013, 06:59 AM
QUOTE (blackdog @ May 10 2013, 12:56 AM)
In terms of symbolism I quite like the NTC choice to go with those from the Borough coat of arms. And they have involved the Flag Institute which sounds sensible.
.
.
So as far as getting community buy in or support - as usual, two fingers!
This demonstrates exactly what is wrong with the present set up, a flag was really the secondary outcome. The same base idea was tried sometime back, but with community involvement, the Mosaic. Did get people involved and enthused, but where is it now? Hidden away in a car park. Oh well, as has just been demonstrated, 75% of the population don't give a toss.
All in this together?
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 13 2013, 09:22 PM
QUOTE (blackdog @ May 10 2013, 12:56 AM)
In terms of symbolism I quite like the NTC choice to go with those from the Borough coat of arms. And they have involved the Flag Institute which sounds sensible.
I worry about using current symbolism - such as a mobile phone for instance - because it's all to short term. If Vodafone are still around in another 50 years or so it might make more sense.
However, the NTC flag sounds too busy - too many symbols would clutter the flag. I'd stick with the castle symbolism that was used by the Borough for a couple of hundred years or more (I even quite like that it is almost certainly totally spurious).
Your second design with the castle logo rather than the coat would be fine by me.
I worry about using current symbolism - such as a mobile phone for instance - because it's all to short term. If Vodafone are still around in another 50 years or so it might make more sense.
However, the NTC flag sounds too busy - too many symbols would clutter the flag. I'd stick with the castle symbolism that was used by the Borough for a couple of hundred years or more (I even quite like that it is almost certainly totally spurious).
Your second design with the castle logo rather than the coat would be fine by me.
How's this?
The http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coa_Illustration_Elements_Building_Castle_v3.svg is by http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Madboy74 and is licensed under the terms of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:GNU_Free_Documentation_License.
Like I said, I don't particularly like the castle symbolism, but then I though the coat image was rather retrospective too and personally I'd prefer the flag to be forward-looking, though what that might look like I can't think. I think it should at least be possible to find a jollier castle.
Posted by: motormad May 13 2013, 10:09 PM
Finland with a Clip-Art Castle?
The image of http://ravendesign.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/logo_for_simon_edhouse.gifis by http://bowlphilosophy.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/david_thorne_27bslash6.jpg and licensed under the terms of finding it on Google.
Posted by: Squelchy May 14 2013, 04:22 PM
I think the problem with Simon's last flag is that people are automatically going to assume that the black lines are representations of the M4 and the A34.
In which case the 'Castle' design is sort of in Thatcham.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 14 2013, 05:14 PM
QUOTE (Squelchy @ May 14 2013, 05:22 PM)
I think the problem with Simon's last flag is that people are automatically going to assume that the black lines are representations of the M4 and the A34.
In which case the 'Castle' design is sort of in Thatcham.
In which case the 'Castle' design is sort of in Thatcham.
That's cool, because my intention was that the dark cross (it's the dark blue of Newbury Rugby Club rather than black) did indeed symbolise Newbury at the crossing of the M4/A4 and the A34 - an asset to the town in my view. I deliberately gave the intersection of the arms of the cross a radius so as to look more like a traffic junction than a religious symbol.
I don't get the Thatcham comment. I see Newbury as essentially south of the M4 and east of the A34 so putting the castle, representing the town itself, in the bottom right seemed like a good choice (geographically if not symbolically), and I rather liked the asymetry it created too. Putting the M4 at the top also leaves room for the Kennet in the bottom half (in the light blue of Newbury Rugby Club).
The flag is blackdog's design, my design has a coat motif.
Posted by: JeffG May 14 2013, 06:48 PM
Well, it certainly looked black to me (more Cornwall than Finland - where did that come from?), and how many people are going to be aware that Newbury Rugby Club play in dark and light blue, if that is indeed the case?
Posted by: NWNREADER May 14 2013, 07:03 PM
QUOTE (JeffG @ May 14 2013, 07:48 PM)
how many people are going to be aware that Newbury Rugby Club play in dark and light blue, if that is indeed the case?
A few more than have involved in this thread - maybe even this forum!
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 14 2013, 08:31 PM
QUOTE (JeffG @ May 14 2013, 07:48 PM)
Well, it certainly looked black to me (more Cornwall than Finland - where did that come from?), and how many people are going to be aware that Newbury Rugby Club play in dark and light blue, if that is indeed the case?
I don't know that it really matters whether people are aware of the significance of the design, not if it looks jolly for starters anyways, though having a flag rich with symbolism does create a bit of a treasure when it is discovered.
Anywho, I'm not particularly proposing any one design, I'm just trying to generate a bit of interest in an open design competition because the fogey flag the town council are imposing on us is dreary and the symbolism wretched, and I think a town flag is great opportunity to do something great together and I don't want the opportunity missed.
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 14 2013, 08:31 PM
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ May 14 2013, 08:03 PM)
A few more than have involved in this thread - maybe even this forum!
How about suggesting a flag design NWNREADER?
Posted by: motormad May 15 2013, 08:28 AM
QUOTE (JeffG @ May 14 2013, 07:48 PM)
Well, it certainly looked black to me (more Cornwall than Finland - where did that come from?), and how many people are going to be aware that Newbury Rugby Club play in dark and light blue, if that is indeed the case?
Am I the ONLY person who sees the finland flag?
Posted by: NWNREADER May 15 2013, 12:44 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 14 2013, 09:31 PM)
How about suggesting a flag design NWNREADER?
http://images.pitchero.com/club_logos/11158/1308678370.gif
Something with this,I guess.....
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 15 2013, 03:37 PM
QUOTE (motormad @ May 15 2013, 09:28 AM)
Am I the ONLY person who sees the finland flag?
No, Finland is pretty similar, though their horizontal bar is in the middle. In fairness, unless the design is radical there's always going to be some similarity between flags because there's not really that many styles and devices, and crosses are particularly common.
How about a design from you motomad - a proper one celebrating something about Newbury that you think is distinctive and worthy?
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 15 2013, 03:40 PM
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ May 15 2013, 01:44 PM)
http://images.pitchero.com/club_logos/11158/1308678370.gif
Something with this,I guess.....
Something with this,I guess.....
Do you know anything about Newbury Rugby Club? Don't suppose you know who the Airedale is?
Posted by: motormad May 15 2013, 06:54 PM
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 15 2013, 04:37 PM)
How about a design from you motomad - a proper one celebrating something about Newbury that you think is distinctive and worthy?
Really? You actually really want me to do that?
Posted by: Simon Kirby May 15 2013, 08:28 PM
QUOTE (motormad @ May 15 2013, 07:54 PM)
Really? You actually really want me to do that?
Yes, really. Not a cynical one though - I could probably do a good one of those - I want you to suggest a real flag that the whole town could fly to celebrate Newbury.
Posted by: motormad May 15 2013, 09:11 PM
If I get really bored.. problem is if I am cynical about Newbury that's pretty much all I could do.
I will have a brain storm and perhaps collaborate and see what is what.
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