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Posted by: spartacus May 23 2012, 04:40 PM

I see that the crash victim has been named.....
http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2012/ufton-nervet-crash-victim-named

Not going to speculate on what might have happened as the thread will be deleted, but from the link it says that as well as the 2004 tragedy the Ufton crossing has been the scene of 'several other deaths'..... Is that true? or are we referring to deaths going back to the mists of time and including every horse and cart that might have been hit since the 1840s.........

Posted by: Biker1 May 23 2012, 09:20 PM

In addition to the crash in 2004 and yesterday there was a suicide there a few years ago.
Apart from that I do not know of any others (in recent history anyway).
There are "near misses" all over the rail network nearly every day.

Posted by: dannyboy May 24 2012, 12:21 AM

Wasn't the 2004 crash a suicide?

Posted by: Biker1 May 24 2012, 07:35 AM

Apparently so as the inquest determined.

Posted by: andy1979uk May 24 2012, 08:44 AM

Yes, the selfish idtiot parked his van there and waited for a train. Shame he did'nt survive and have to face the families of the people who died on the train.

Posted by: Roger T May 24 2012, 08:46 AM

Selfish?
Oh dear. I feel this is going to get off-track very quickly.

Posted by: Biker1 May 24 2012, 08:48 AM

Best if we all leave it there I think?

Posted by: Roger T May 24 2012, 08:51 AM

Okay, I agree.

:-)
Permission to ramble?

Posted by: Andy Capp May 24 2012, 10:57 AM

I'd say it was a shame he didn't have a change of heart.

Posted by: Jayjay May 24 2012, 11:34 AM

I don't understand why they use half barriers on any level crossing. They should be full barriers across the network.

Posted by: andy1979uk May 24 2012, 11:46 AM

Don't agree with that, if people are selfish enough to commit suicide leave them too it. Although he should have done it in a way that did not harm others.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 24 2012, 12:08 PM

Suicide nearly always harms someone else. Someone who does such a thing is not usually in a rational state of mind, so to accuse of selfishness is missing the point; if not ignorant of what mental illness is.

Going back to my point: you would wish bad things; I would wish good things.

Posted by: Biker1 May 24 2012, 03:44 PM

They use half barriers on automatic crossing because there is no human observation to see if anyone is trapped on the crossing.
If someone was trapped on full barriers there would be no escape route.
The half barrier allows an escape route although, most unfortunately, not for this poor individual in this instance.

Posted by: Penelope May 24 2012, 04:02 PM

Well said.

Posted by: blackdog May 24 2012, 04:14 PM

That's a fair point - but you don't need half barriers on both sides to provide an escape route. Of course what they really need is automatic rising bollards .

Posted by: JeffG May 24 2012, 07:48 PM

In my experience, the amber light changes to flashing red before the barriers go down, and well before the train arrives.

Posted by: Biker1 May 24 2012, 08:58 PM

Yes you do as you need an escape for both directions of travel.

Posted by: Biker1 May 24 2012, 08:59 PM

Correct, but some foolhardy folks choose to ignore them and chance it.
Sometimes they lose.

Posted by: blackdog May 24 2012, 10:16 PM

Why? Cars come with forward and reverse gears.

Posted by: Biker1 May 25 2012, 06:52 AM

You enter the crossing, the barrier behind you comes down, the barrier in front of you comes down, you have a train approaching at 100mph - where do you go? you can neither go forward or reverse and a 8 point turn to reach the single open barrier on the opposite side may take some time!

Posted by: Local resident May 25 2012, 07:43 AM

They are only half barriers to allow people trapped on the track an escape route off it, NOT to stop people wilfully ignoring flashing red lights and audible warning sirens.

How can people possibly pass the driving test and yet be so ignorant of how to behave at Red lights is beyond me.

What is more, if he was stuck on the crossing and saw the train coming why the **** didn't he just jump off and make a run for it. The scooter did next to no damage to the train, which is unsurprising as you're talking about a locomotive that weighs 70 tonnes versus a scooter of maybe 200 kg. It will hit it like bullet punching it's way through a piece of paper. Cars are different being heavier, but even in that scenario, if I was broken down on the crossing and saw the barriers come down I would just get out and stay out. There's nothing I could do to avoid the collision.

There is a telephone to warn signalmen that the crossing is obstructed as well, although one may not always expect to have time to use it.

Posted by: blackdog May 25 2012, 07:57 AM

Then place the barriers a little further apart to allow the vehicle to steer around the half barrier without a multipoint turn.

Posted by: Local resident May 25 2012, 08:27 AM

In most cases road layouts and nearby properties requiring vehicle access, or adjacent road junctions don't allow for this. If you are really desperate it is possible to crash through the barriers ( obviously you will wreck your car ).

As I said in my first post, if you are sat on a level crossing, for WHATEVER reason, and you see the barriers come down ( which will mean a train is approaching and usually less than half a mile away as that is where the track treadles are usually sited ), you unclip your seat belt, open the door, get out, get your passengers out, and get off the crossing......... as quickly as you possibly can. Save yourself, not the car. The train just isn't going to stop in time at normal line speed ( which may only be 70 mph on that stretch of line due to the curves, but an HST is capable of 125mph as we all know ).

Even if the barriers haven't come down you should follow the same course of action and telephone the signalman IMMEDIATELY. He can then set the signals to stop all trains in the vicinity so that your vehicle can be safely recovered.

The default expectation, from a train drivers viewpoint, is that if the signal is green, then the crossing is NOT obstructed, and he WON'T apply the brakes. Remember that in venturing onto a level crossing you are gaining LIMITED access to the railway, and should not expect the normal rules and rights of the road user to apply.

Posted by: Biker1 May 25 2012, 08:50 AM

If you wish to re-design automatic level crossings then I suggest you contact http://www.networkrail.co.uk/ with your ideas!

Posted by: blackdog May 25 2012, 09:13 AM

Maybe at single track crossings, but in many/most cases they are already far enough apart.

At Ufton there's probably enough space to park a car between the barrier and the track.

The real problem is how to stop suicide by train.

Posted by: Local resident May 25 2012, 09:27 AM

It depends on how big your car is though doesn't it! If it happens to be a Ford Transit minibus, or a 52 seat luxury coach, you're driving then getting your passengers out and off the crossing is your first responsibility.

As for suicides, anyone could just as easily throw themselves off a bridge, stand on an electrified third rail or kneel in front of a train in the dark. The effect is the same, but each method requires a completely different prevention approach. There is no 'one size fits all ' approach to rail safety.

Posted by: Bloggo May 25 2012, 09:48 AM

I don't believe that this case was a suicide but an accident. We will see what the Coroner says.
However there will always be people attempting suicide by one method or another and in all cases it causes untold misery and disruption.

I believe that there should be a legal process that would require the agreement and protection of two doctors to state that if a person was of a sound mind and was fully aware of the finality of the decision then there would be a clinic to go to in order to die in a calm and controlled environment. Similar to the clinics in Switzerland that assist people to pass away.

Posted by: JeffG May 25 2012, 09:58 AM

I was thinking at first that a panic button which does the same thing as shorting out the track circuit would, would avoid the delay in phoning and talking to the signalman and might just save enough time to avert a collision, or at least to have the train start braking.

But on second thoughts this would be something else for the schoolkids to do during the holidays.

Posted by: andy1979uk May 25 2012, 10:00 AM

I think you can only end your life in switzerland if you are dying anyway and will have not quality of life. I dont think its a case of I've had enough lets end it now.

Such clinics would cost a small fortune to run, certainly should not be on the NHS.

Posted by: Jayjay May 25 2012, 10:00 AM

It would be very nice but suicide's by definition are never of 'sound mind' unless physical illness presents itself then that is euthanasia. Suicidal thoughts or actions are when the brain cannot cope with every day life through social situations (grief, trauma) or neuro-transmitter levels in the brain.

Posted by: Bloggo May 25 2012, 10:25 AM

Yes, I understand what you are saying. It just seems to me those that can't cope with life and are diagnosed as sane and in control of their decisions should be able to end their life if they choose.

Posted by: Bloggo May 25 2012, 10:27 AM

I wonder if the cost of a set up like this would not be offset by the costs incurred in random suicide attempts?

Posted by: andy1979uk May 25 2012, 10:29 AM

would more people not do it if it was that easy

Posted by: Local resident May 25 2012, 10:35 AM

But you need a phone to warn the signalman for other eventualites as well, e.g. if you are planning on driving a slow moving vehicle, or livestock, across the crossing.

The attitude to adopt at level crossings is exactly the same as using a pedestrian crossing, DON'T cross on a red man, and certainly don't try to use the half barriers as some kind of chicane thinking that you'll get away with it this time.

The train has the right of way, and even if you have a panic button there may be nothing that can be done because the train has already passed the signal.

If the emergency crossing phone rings in the signalling centre the signalman is trained to set everything to red straight away, not just the trains nearest the crossing but all the ones that are following and could potentially pile up into the back of the train that has stopped ( or not as the case may be). He has to protect the whole of the line he's responsible for, not just the one crossing in question.

Posted by: Local resident May 25 2012, 10:52 AM

I agree that this was likely to be an accident, but the issue isn't what caused the crash be it accidental or deliberate, it's about what can be realistically done to prevent it given that we are all human beings with the capability of choosing our own destiny to either live according to the rules we set out for ourselves, or make reckless and life threatening decisions for ourselves and others.

A knee-jerk reaction is to say, 'build a bridge', but that just introduces a whole new set of hazards and risks, as the Selby (Great Heck) and Eschede crashes illustrate.

Posted by: Bloggo May 25 2012, 11:13 AM

You're quite right. We all have the ability to choose and we have all made the wrong choice from time to time. There is always risks surrounding our daily lives and we constantly make decisions to minimise those risks.
In this case he made the wrong decision. He won't be the last but you can't protect all of the peoplle all of the time.

Posted by: Darren May 25 2012, 11:23 AM

Maybe for the average snail, but cars tend to travel fast enough not to have that problem

Posted by: Local resident May 25 2012, 11:39 AM

What about tractors, construction vehicles, or a horse ( actually they would probably scarper off down the track leaving the rider behind )? You have to consider every possible scenario.

Posted by: spartacus May 25 2012, 11:49 AM

The incident in 2004 was a suicide which sadly also ended and destroyed the lives of many who weren't in such emotional turmoil and wanting to 'end it all'.. If there have been two deaths at this crossing since then in 2009 and 2010 as the NWN indicates (I can't remember them happening but there you go) then you do wonder if there's some sort of minor 'Beachy Head' attraction with this crossing.

Not wishing to speculate (too much) about the moped rider, but whizzing between the barrier gaps in some sort of thrill seeking thing is one thing, but the report implies he was waiting on the track and the driver saw him and applied the brakes?

Posted by: Nothing Much May 25 2012, 11:50 AM

I think in most cases red lights flash for some time before an unmanned gate comes down.

You have a choice, a bit like "Dirty Harry", Punk you have a choice. Was it 10 seconds or 5?
Don't cross when the lights flash. What is four minutes on a narrow lane like Ufton Nervet.

Often the accidents are slow moving agricultural tractors and trailers.

I think I posted this anecdote about crazy drivers some time ago,but I'll do it again.
An elderly couple narrowly escaped tragedy when they overtook a line of parked cars,
at the end of the line of cars they discovered they were all waiting for a level crossing.

Instead of say saying oops I've done it again the driver tried to proceed with the best slalom tactic .
Smacked by the train, luckily only just getting up speed after a station halt.
There are numbskulls of all ages.
ce

Posted by: spartacus May 25 2012, 11:52 AM

They haven't got the money to build a bridge at the Thatcham crossing where traffic demand is constant. They wouldn't have any to spend on a crossing that might take one car every hour...

Posted by: Nothing Much May 25 2012, 12:07 PM

Thinking about the crossing Spartacus, there are not that many.
We moored up on the K&A and walked up to a pub on the A4 over a bridge.

(Full of Vodaphone folk, with or without G in their tonic, I would not wish to comment)

The trains are pretty regular,freight and passenger.It is horrid that a tormented soul took so many with him.
Sometimes places are a magnet for "End of Days" moments like Beachy Head.
Rolling down Combe Hill would be fun,but not the desired effect for a suicide.
ce

Posted by: Nothing Much May 25 2012, 12:09 PM

Sorry-duplicate
ce

Posted by: Local resident May 25 2012, 01:07 PM

I don't think it's a matter of whether the traffic demand is high or not, it's a matter of where the most fatalities have demonstrably occured in the past, and it appears Ufton Nervert is getting the reputation for an accident blackspot. Thatcham also has another crossing at Colthrop so there is a choice of two routes over the railway if you so wish. Then there's the ones at Hungerford, Kintbury, Marsh Benham and Midgham as well. So that's 7 in a stretch of railway maybe only 20 miles long. It's a feature of most railways that are built along long flat routes with no natural gradients. The other 6 crossings don't seem to attract this kind of accident. I'll wager that something can be done either side on the approach roads to stop cars from speeding, that way it's impossible to approach the crossing at speed. Sleeping policemen might be necessary, who knows?

I register an interest in this topic because on the evening of 06th November 2004 I was one of the passengers stranded at Reading Station on my way from returning from the Football at Withdean Stadium in Brighton ( v. Crewe, L 1-3 ) . I can only thank my lucky stars that I was not one of the many Reading fans caught up in it, but I passed the ( as then barely lit ) crash site on the rail replacement bus service.

Posted by: JeffG May 25 2012, 03:36 PM

Is that a typo for Enschede, or is that somewhere else? Just asking.

Ah yes. Just checked it out. 1998 - someone has a long memory.

Posted by: Nothing Much May 25 2012, 03:55 PM

Whilst I would not wish to diminish the seriousness of the topic.
Was it not on that area of track (Selby) that a train halted by lights ,with passengers looking out of the windows
& who watched a gent being too friendly with a goat.
I think he got suspended.(probably the Humber Bridge).
ce
Anyway back to sensible stuff.

Posted by: dannyboy May 25 2012, 03:57 PM

Enschede is in the Netherlands - made the news when a firework factory located in a residential area, blew up.

Eschede train disaster was caused by a fractured wheel on a German ICE train. The train derailed & hit a bridge, which collapsed.

Posted by: Darren May 25 2012, 06:59 PM

From the Highway Code.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069864

294

Railway telephones. If you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle, a long, low vehicle with a risk of grounding, or herding animals, a train could arrive before you are clear of the crossing. You MUST obey any sign instructing you to use the railway telephone to obtain permission to cross. You MUST also telephone when clear of the crossing if requested to do so.

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 16(1)]

Posted by: NWNREADER May 25 2012, 07:50 PM

Yes, but what if the phone isn't working?

Posted by: Darren May 25 2012, 07:53 PM

You don't cross. Simple.

Posted by: NWNREADER May 25 2012, 08:01 PM

What if you are being chased by violent criminals who want to steal your sheep/tractor & trailer....?

Posted by: JeffG May 25 2012, 09:10 PM

Thanks for the clarification. Yes I know where Enschede is - probably driven through there a few times - but hadn't heard of Eschede.

Posted by: Darren May 25 2012, 09:10 PM

Get attack sheep and lure them in. Then write a letter to the Daily Mail complaining.

Posted by: Biker1 May 26 2012, 05:48 AM

The other crossings you mention are full barrier manually controlled by a signaller.
Ufton is an automatic half barrier activated by the train- there's the difference.

Posted by: dannyboy May 26 2012, 11:05 AM

Worse case scenario - attempting to move a 120 tonne transformer over an unmanned level crossing on a low loader that can do 4mph without calling the signalman first.........

Posted by: NWNREADER May 26 2012, 11:07 AM

Before or after the train arrives?

Posted by: NWNREADER May 26 2012, 11:08 AM

What if it is only a 100 tonne transformer?

Posted by: dannyboy May 26 2012, 11:17 AM

Train will move it a little further. I think the 120 tonne one was shifted about 12 yards.

Posted by: NWNREADER May 26 2012, 11:25 AM

What if the transformer turned into a super hero and hurled the low-loader out of the way? That is what transformers do, as I watched the film....

Posted by: Biker1 May 27 2012, 07:01 AM

You're talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hixon_rail_crash right?
Nasty one that.

Posted by: Strafin Jun 1 2012, 06:26 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/brushes-with-death-video-_n_1559839.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003

Train and vehicle related brushes with death. Safe, no gore, deaths or blood!

Posted by: Timbo Jun 1 2012, 06:30 PM

Funnily enough - was watching this at work. Well, being shown.

Posted by: NWNREADER Jun 1 2012, 08:00 PM

As long as no-one sees it as a training video........