Second referendum Options

[Strafin]

Not only have I never been asked my opinion I also do not know anyone who has been polled either. I see the "peoples vote" brigade were preaching to the converted down northbrook street the other day, but as they were not interested in the views of those who had differing ideas one concludes a vox pop is in the chocolate teapot category.

Why would they be? If you were drumming up support and growing a movement, you want to reach out to your supporters.

[je suis Charlie]

Not only have I never been asked my opinion I also do not know anyone who has been polled either. I see the "peoples vote" brigade were preaching to the converted down northbrook street the other day, but as they were not interested in the views of those who had differing ideas one concludes a vox pop is in the chocolate teapot category.

Exactly, falls firmly into the "four legs good, two legs bad" camp of argument. Gather the faithful around you and tell them what they already believe.

[newres]

Exactly, falls firmly into the "four legs good, two legs bad" camp of argument. Gather the faithful around you and tell them what they already believe.

Ah yeah, but the sheep like Brexiters would swallow "four legs good, two legs better". Gullible.

[SirWilliam]

Ah yeah, but the sheep like Brexiters would swallow "four legs good, two legs better". Gullible.

Why??? Surely the free thinkers are those who saw the way we were heading and see fit to change for good. The analogy that somehow sheep are dumb and those who voted leave are dumber is completely unsubstantiated as a scientific fact.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Why??? Surely the free thinkers are those who saw the way we were heading and see fit to change for good. The analogy that somehow sheep are dumb and those who voted leave are dumber is completely unsubstantiated as a scientific fact.

Indeed the real sheep are the ones voting for the status quo (stay in the EU). The brexiteers have more vision and can see a life outside of the EU superstate.

[newres]

Why??? Surely the free thinkers are those who saw the way we were heading and see fit to change for good. The analogy that somehow sheep are dumb and those who voted leave are dumber is completely unsubstantiated as a scientific fact.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...d-a7881441.html

https://www.theweek.co.uk/89378/fact-check-...ted-vote-remain

[newres]

Indeed the real sheep are the ones voting for the status quo (stay in the EU). The brexiteers have more vision and can see a life outside of the EU superstate.

Vision?

[je suis Charlie]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...d-a7881441.html

https://www.theweek.co.uk/89378/fact-check-...ted-vote-remain

Except of course, anyone can conduct any study to come up with any conclusions. Bit like conducting a poll, ask the right questions, get the results you're looking for. Only the terminally dull actually believe them. Still, it was you who went out of your way to find them, so that speaks volumes.

[newres]

Except of course, anyone can conduct any study to come up with any conclusions. Bit like conducting a poll, ask the right questions, get the results you're looking for. Only the terminally dull actually believe them. Still, it was you who went out of your way to find them, so that speaks volumes.

There's nothing to believe. It's survey data. What you or I believe is an irrelevance.

[Mr Brown]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...d-a7881441.html

https://www.theweek.co.uk/89378/fact-check-...ted-vote-remain

I don't like to say this, but a detailled analysis presently underway, comes to a contrary conclusion. This looks across the piece focusing on what 'degree level education' really means in the UK. In essence, the way we implemented state comprehensive secondary education meant that the 1944 Act 'grammar, technical and secondary' separation were mixed meaning all pupils received the technical level - Teachers simply can't teach all levels in one class. In practical terms, that meant they have been taught just to accept base facts and not to question them. We see this by the well reported dumbing down of GCE / GCSE testing. Then, as the Government created a demand that at least 50% of students should go to university, a shortage of these institutes lead to the re-classification of most County Technical Colleges and Art Schools, without any increase in course standards. A perfect storm. An unintended consequence is the now vast number of younger people who simply accept what they have been taught to believe are absolutes in fact terms, the accuracy being underpinned simply by being from an official source faux or otherwise - sadly, these are the 'remain' young voter. Similarly, there are a significant number of older people, who were educated before this dumbing down had time to take effect, and these seem to be in the exit camp. This analysis is, of course, deeply disturbing to those guiding our education policy as well as the Government, not least because it calls into sharp focus the worth of student loans, let alone the billions pumped into state education. It's fairly easy these days to get a international comparisons, just one example demonstrates. India has dramatically improved it's attainment levels since independence, both secondary and university. Hence, very little IT coding or indeed development is done these days without heavy Indian involvement. So, perhaps this is why we are now in a bit of a mess with Brexit. From my own perspective, it also tells another message. That is, much as I'd want to exit the EU, sadly, we appear to have lost the management and operational capability to stand on our own. In essence. we have created a workforce that has to be told what to do but none educated sufficiently to do the telling. A dilemma indeed.

[newres]

I don't like to say this, but a detailled analysis presently underway, comes to a contrary conclusion. This looks across the piece focusing on what 'degree level education' really means in the UK. In essence, the way we implemented state comprehensive secondary education meant that the 1944 Act 'grammar, technical and secondary' separation were mixed meaning all pupils received the technical level - Teachers simply can't teach all levels in one class. In practical terms, that meant they have been taught just to accept base facts and not to question them. We see this by the well reported dumbing down of GCE / GCSE testing. Then, as the Government created a demand that at least 50% of students should go to university, a shortage of these institutes lead to the re-classification of most County Technical Colleges and Art Schools, without any increase in course standards. A perfect storm. An unintended consequence is the now vast number of younger people who simply accept what they have been taught to believe are absolutes in fact terms, the accuracy being underpinned simply by being from an official source faux or otherwise - sadly, these are the 'remain' young voter. Similarly, there are a significant number of older people, who were educated before this dumbing down had time to take effect, and these seem to be in the exit camp. This analysis is, of course, deeply disturbing to those guiding our education policy as well as the Government, not least because it calls into sharp focus the worth of student loans, let alone the billions pumped into state education. It's fairly easy these days to get a international comparisons, just one example demonstrates. India has dramatically improved it's attainment levels since independence, both secondary and university. Hence, very little IT coding or indeed development is done these days without heavy Indian involvement. So, perhaps this is why we are now in a bit of a mess with Brexit. From my own perspective, it also tells another message. That is, much as I'd want to exit the EU, sadly, we appear to have lost the management and operational capability to stand on our own. In essence. we have created a workforce that has to be told what to do but none educated sufficiently to do the telling. A dilemma indeed.

Let’s hope the youngsters get taught how to use paragraphs.

[Strafin]

Nice to have someone different posting on here, thanks for joining in. Newres, that was unnecessary.

[newres]

Nice to have someone different posting on here, thanks for joining in. Newres, that was unnecessary.

I don’t think so. He made unsubstantiated criticisms that were merely opinion of the reasoning ability of the young but framed it in such a way that it was virtually unintelligible.

[newres]

Actually, Mr I've got a degree.

ticktockor tic·toc[tik-tok]
noun
an alternating ticking sound, as that made by a clock.
verb (used without object)
to emit or produce a ticking sound, like that of a clock.

However you spell it, looks like you’ll have to reset it and perhaps even bin it because it’s looking a distinct possibility that TM will only get her deal through with a public vote to follow.

[Mr Brown]

I don’t think so. He made unsubstantiated criticisms that were merely opinion of the reasoning ability of the young but framed it in such a way that it was virtually unintelligible.

No, the reasoning ability of the young is not criticised. Advanced reasoning is a learned ability and the analysis is suggesting they have been very badly let down by our secondary education and further education systems.

I would strongly suggest that your initial adverse review is simply because this analysis has produced a result that is at odds with the thinking of the past three or four decades. That's pretty normal in situations where careful research demonstrates major flaws in previous established 'truths'.

This isn't my analysis and I'm not at liberty to indicate the source; for the very reasons you've demonstrated. However, inspite of how difficult you may find the oresentation, I'd urge you to think on the basic outcomes and then provide a challenge. It would indeed be good to know that our young people (or a big proportion) really are educated to old grammar / Oxbridge standards.

[je suis Charlie]

Nice to have someone different posting on here, thanks for joining in. Newres, that was unnecessary.

When did newres ever do anything else on this forum.

[je suis Charlie]

However you spell it, looks like you’ll have to reset it and perhaps even bin it because it’s looking a distinct possibility that TM will only get her deal through with a public vote to follow.

It's actually looking unlikely to end up with a second vote, what we don't need, I certainly don't, is an extension to the whole process, either do it or drop it. It's the uncertainty that's damaging industry.

[newres]

No, the reasoning ability of the young is not criticised. Advanced reasoning is a learned ability and the analysis is suggesting they have been very badly let down by our secondary education and further education systems.

I would strongly suggest that your initial adverse review is simply because this analysis has produced a result that is at odds with the thinking of the past three or four decades. That's pretty normal in situations where careful research demonstrates major flaws in previous established 'truths'.

This isn't my analysis and I'm not at liberty to indicate the source; for the very reasons you've demonstrated. However, inspite of how difficult you may find the oresentation, I'd urge you to think on the basic outcomes and then provide a challenge. It would indeed be good to know that our young people (or a big proportion) really are educated to old grammar / Oxbridge standards.

I’m not a “young” person. The educated v non educated is across the age range so your argument that you can’t substantiate is false.

[newres]

It's actually looking unlikely to end up with a second vote, what we don't need, I certainly don't, is an extension to the whole process, either do it or drop it. It's the uncertainty that's damaging industry.

Well the pound has soared today. No deal being removed will to a large one extent end the uncertainty and will benefit business. Don’t forget BJ’s “**** business” retort. The side of the Tory party that Amber Rudd and others represent is far more concerned with the success of business than the Leave campaign are. If you truly do run a business you can’t possibly want the kind of “certainty” that no deal offers.

[newres]

When did newres ever do anything else on this forum.

I’ve always called out total bollix, you’re quite right.