Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Newbury Today Forum _ Random Rants _ Why your Council Tax Bill is so high...
Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome May 31 2011, 03:16 PM
http://blogs.news.sky.com/boultonandco/Post:7c033666-7844-4860-8f6a-293a1dbc0c6d
I'm not sure what the solution is but this is beoming a real problem.
Posted by: Bloggo May 31 2011, 03:21 PM
I'm not sure what the solution is but this is beoming a real problem.
The solution could be to ask council employees to increase their contribution to their own pension in the form of an AVC rather than rely on contributions from tax payers through council tax.
Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome May 31 2011, 03:24 PM
Agreed. Otherwise we will just end up paying all our Council Tax to pay for other peoples pensions and the services that are delivered by Councils will be poor / negligible. Apart from my bins getting collected once a week I'm not sure what else I get out of paying over a £1000 a year to WBC...
Posted by: NWNREADER May 31 2011, 03:34 PM
I'm not sure what the solution is but this is beoming a real problem.
The issue of 'fair pensions' is a real chestnut. Not that many years ago 'private' pensions beat any public sector one into a cocked hat. Investment returns provided payouts way beyond what public sector schemes could. Then Mr Brown taxed the funds, and investment returns took a turn for the worse.
Public sector pensions are fixed by the salary on retirement; private ones are always dependant upon returns up to date of retirement, which may be much more, or less. When the returns are more, no-one complains about public pensions; when less, then envy kicks in like as now.
A lot of emotional waffle and fog gets in the way of proper assessment. Few private pension plans take 11% of pay from the employee, for instance.
Lastly, as mentioned in the article comments, some of the increase in LA staff is purely to service central government policies.
Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome May 31 2011, 03:39 PM
Public sector pensions are fixed by the salary on retirement; private ones are always dependant upon returns up to date of retirement, which may be much more, or less. When the returns are more, no-one complains about public pensions; when less, then envy kicks in like as now.
A lot of emotional waffle and fog gets in the way of proper assessment. Few private pension plans take 11% of pay from the employee, for instance.
Lastly, as mentioned in the article comments, some of the increase in LA staff is purely to service central government policies.
I'm not envious. I just think that nearly 25% of my Council Tax going into a Pension Pot for Public Sector workers is a little unfair when I'm trying to put enough in my own fund to allow me to retire!
Posted by: Strafin May 31 2011, 05:04 PM
I've just had a bailiff around AGAIN for unpaid council tax - I showed him the receipts for the £1500 I paid last year and the £2000 for the year before (including fees ands expenses). He has gone away for now but I know that won't be the end of it. I hate paying anything to WBC because I feel that it is administered so badly and that I am paying for someone elses **** up all the time. I will now have to go down there again, taking time out of work and spend hours going through it all with some moron who will promise that it's all sorted pay the lot in full and then go through it all again next year. I am not envious of the pensions, I am downright furious that half these people even manage to stay in their jobs. I don't know how many workers WBC have in the administrative areas but I am sure they could back a lot of costs by employing competent people in the first place.
Posted by: Andy Capp May 31 2011, 06:40 PM
Have you gone to the CEO about it? Why do you get this hastle, I don't and I don't know anyone else who does either?
Posted by: JeffG May 31 2011, 06:53 PM
What method do you use to pay your council tax if you get receipts? Sounds like you are just making work for yourself and not getting credited for the payments you do make. Mine just goes out of my bank account monthly for ten months of the year and I never hear a peep out of them.
Posted by: user23 May 31 2011, 06:56 PM
Posted by: user23 May 31 2011, 07:29 PM
Posted by: NWNREADER May 31 2011, 08:43 PM
Council Tax is surely to pay for all services the community requires, not just the ones we individually use? Further, there is an element of insurance - to provide services we may require at short notice.
I pay £1800 a year at the moment - £150/month, £40 a week. Given the range of activities I'd struggle to say that was not reasonable to provide the range of services in the whole WBC area. It is certainly not excessive, even though I would like it to be less. If central Govt cut out the impositions on local councils that cost so much yet give so little then we would all gain.
Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jun 1 2011, 07:43 AM
I had a baliff knock on my door employed by WBC to pick up o/s monies on a previous owner of the houses unpaid bills. I had to show him my passport to prove that I was who I said I was. IF WBC issue summons against persons and those persons are no longer at that address and the present incumbent occupent owes no money then surely they should be telling these baliff's not to knock on innocent paid up peoples doors???
Posted by: Bloggo Jun 1 2011, 07:49 AM
Yes, but that would need a joined-up, information sharing regime across the council departments that perhaps is a little lacking.
Posted by: Andy Capp Jun 1 2011, 08:37 AM
Rather like the IR, I believe it is deliberate ignorance. There are a lot of sneaky people about.
Posted by: Strafin Jun 1 2011, 07:41 PM
The wife phoned the council today and they are saying that our accounts are all clear so it looks like it will again take some sorting out. I think the problem for me is that we have moved quite a lot in recent years and did get into arrears when we first moved back to Newbury. I suspect that this means we have more than one record on the file and they (in the call centre) don't necessarily link them all together.
Posted by: Rosewinelover Jun 2 2011, 11:26 AM
Council tax dos not just pay for our wheelie bins to be emptied...from the website:
it provides the major source of income for West Berkshire Council. The range of services that the local authority delivers to the community is broad and specialised. Some examples are:
•Education and Learning - adult and community learning, early years and childcare, schools and non-advanced education.
•Health and Social Care - services for children and young people and care services for the elderly and those with disability.
•Community and Living - community events, arts and leisure facilities and libraries.
•Transport and Streets - traffic calming, street naming and numbering, parking, road maintenance and cycle routes.
An amount collected with your Council Tax also pays for Royal Berkshire Fire and Rescue Service, Thames Valley Police Authority and your town or parish council.
I pay £118 a month and would not want to pay more so hope we do not get another increase next year.
I agree about paying into their pension fund, 25% did someone say? Bloody ****, didn't realize it was that much. Not happy about that!!! Funny how that is not on the website
Posted by: NWNREADER Jun 2 2011, 12:40 PM
it provides the major source of income for West Berkshire Council. The range of services that the local authority delivers to the community is broad and specialised. Some examples are:
•Education and Learning - adult and community learning, early years and childcare, schools and non-advanced education.
•Health and Social Care - services for children and young people and care services for the elderly and those with disability.
•Community and Living - community events, arts and leisure facilities and libraries.
•Transport and Streets - traffic calming, street naming and numbering, parking, road maintenance and cycle routes.
An amount collected with your Council Tax also pays for Royal Berkshire Fire and Rescue Service, Thames Valley Police Authority and your town or parish council.
I pay £118 a month and would not want to pay more so hope we do not get another increase next year.
I agree about paying into their pension fund, 25% did someone say? Bloody ****, didn't realize it was that much. Not happy about that!!! Funny how that is not on the website
Is that £118 for 10 months, or 12?
I believe there is no pension 'fund'. That is how private pensions operate - payments invested to create enough (they hope) to cover payments when they are needed. If the investment goes well the pensioner is quids in; when the government tax the earnings that is less so, and in bad years things get gloomy. Public service pensions tend to be 'schemes', where the employee is paid less for the duration of their employment on the understanding they will be paid a known amount after retirement - no more, no less. In both cases the employer makes a contribution, which can be 100% in private fund arrangements.
I wonder what the draw down for pension payments is with private company funds? Especially those with non-contributory arrangements for the employee........
Posted by: Rosewinelover Jun 2 2011, 01:39 PM
I believe there is no pension 'fund'. That is how private pensions operate - payments invested to create enough (they hope) to cover payments when they are needed. If the investment goes well the pensioner is quids in; when the government tax the earnings that is less so, and in bad years things get gloomy. Public service pensions tend to be 'schemes', where the employee is paid less for the duration of their employment on the understanding they will be paid a known amount after retirement - no more, no less. In both cases the employer makes a contribution, which can be 100% in private fund arrangements.
I wonder what the draw down for pension payments is with private company funds? Especially those with non-contributory arrangements for the employee........
It is for 10 months.
Posted by: NWNREADER Jun 2 2011, 04:55 PM
£1180 a year? Less than £100/month or £25/week? Is that over priced for what is provided?
Posted by: Ron Jun 2 2011, 05:16 PM
Not compared to mine it aint!
Posted by: Biker1 Jun 2 2011, 05:36 PM
If only!
You can add another 700 quid plus to that for mine!
Posted by: user23 Jun 2 2011, 06:53 PM
Posted by: Rosewinelover Jun 2 2011, 07:24 PM
No, that's why I said I am happy to pay £118 a month but not anymore.
Posted by: Rosewinelover Jun 2 2011, 07:27 PM
Just going by what TDH said, no one said he was talking rubbish until now.
Posted by: user23 Jun 2 2011, 07:43 PM
Posted by: Rosewinelover Jun 2 2011, 07:47 PM
No, you know I haven't because I went by what I read on previous page... But you have (obviously) so not sure what more is needed to be said now?
Posted by: NWNREADER Jun 2 2011, 08:28 PM
You can add another 700 quid plus to that for mine!
Mine too, as previously mentioned. Under a property 'value' based system there will be such variation, but I still don't feel the charge excessive (even though I wish it were less) for the overall cost of services provided.
Posted by: Strafin Jun 2 2011, 08:30 PM
You would have thought they would have a better grasp on it being that they obviously have your details as a council tax payer. Somewhere there is probably someone getting upset as they keep recieving my bills too!
Posted by: Strafin Jun 2 2011, 08:31 PM
From Sky News website; but the figures are well documented elsewhere.
More than one pound in every five paid in council tax goes on local authority pensions according to the latest figures.
Waste Watch has been poring over the latest Local Government Finance Statistics, which were quietly released on Friday.
They reveal that 22.5% of income from council tax in 2009/10 went on pensions for council employees - up from 19 per cent in 2005/6.
This means that for every £5 raised in council tax, £1.13 goes into the retirement pots.
The document also reveals employers' contributions to pensions - in other words, the amount of taxpayers' money that councils give to the pot - totalled £5.8 billion in 2009/10. That's up seven per cent on 2008/9.
If you look at the figures from 2000/1 until 2009/10, employers' contributions have more than doubled, increasing at a far greater rate than the amount contributed by council workers.
For instance, in 2000/1, employers contributed £2.273 billion compared to the employees' contribution of £1.060 billion. That rose to £5.579 billion for employers in 2009/10, and £1.974 billion for employees.
Campaigners believe overhauling the pension system would lead to greatly reduced council tax bills.
Matthew Sinclair, director of the Taxpayers' Alliance, said: "If you did something that shifts contributions more on to the employees, that will absolutely feed through into lower council tax almost immediately.
"With council tax nearly doubled over the past decade, controlling the cost of contributions to staff pensions is a critical opportunity to get taxpayers a better deal."
Posted by: NWNREADER Jun 2 2011, 08:34 PM
More than one pound in every five paid in council tax goes on local authority pensions according to the latest figures.
Waste Watch has been poring over the latest Local Government Finance Statistics, which were quietly released on Friday.
They reveal that 22.5% of income from council tax in 2009/10 went on pensions for council employees - up from 19 per cent in 2005/6.
This means that for every £5 raised in council tax, £1.13 goes into the retirement pots.
The document also reveals employers' contributions to pensions - in other words, the amount of taxpayers' money that councils give to the pot - totalled £5.8 billion in 2009/10. That's up seven per cent on 2008/9.
If you look at the figures from 2000/1 until 2009/10, employers' contributions have more than doubled, increasing at a far greater rate than the amount contributed by council workers.
For instance, in 2000/1, employers contributed £2.273 billion compared to the employees' contribution of £1.060 billion. That rose to £5.579 billion for employers in 2009/10, and £1.974 billion for employees.
Campaigners believe overhauling the pension system would lead to greatly reduced council tax bills.
Matthew Sinclair, director of the Taxpayers' Alliance, said: "If you did something that shifts contributions more on to the employees, that will absolutely feed through into lower council tax almost immediately.
"With council tax nearly doubled over the past decade, controlling the cost of contributions to staff pensions is a critical opportunity to get taxpayers a better deal."
That is indeed the original link, but as it stands now the information is substantially challenged - another perspective states the cost is less than 5%...... Statistics do not tell much more than where to look next for information
Posted by: user23 Jun 2 2011, 08:42 PM
Slightly worrying that no one other than NWNREADER questioned or it seems actually looked at the figures in question.
What a pickle! Local government minister gets it wrong on council workers' pensions
UNISON, the UK’s largest union, today called on Eric Pickles to get his facts right, after he wrongly claimed that the local government pension scheme costs every household more than £300 each every year. In reality, it costs the average household £67 a year, or 5p in every £1 paid in council tax.
Pickles’ £300 a year claim followed a press release by Waste Watch, a Sky News blog, that was full of mistakes. Waste Watch got its sums wrong because it didn’t know basic facts about council funding. Council tax is not the only source of local government funding – 75% comes from other sources including business rates, fees, charges, and central government funding.
Posted by: Andy Capp Jun 2 2011, 09:16 PM
And what is the source of the emboldened money?
Posted by: Simon Kirby Jun 2 2011, 09:17 PM
Doesn't the Council have to get a Liability Order from the Magistrate's Court before it can send the bailiffs round? Weren't you invited to defend the application?
Posted by: On the edge Jun 2 2011, 09:24 PM
Have to say User23's response does ring true. Frankly, pensions are a convenient smoke screen - the same issue with all firms who had the final salary scheme. BT for instance and indeed many of the Banks. So where does the funding shortfall come from? Look North my friends - the further you go the more you are paying. Yes, the Barnet formula - Labour's attempt to 'buy' Scotland in the 70s! Both parties have said they would get rid of it but both parties never have. So, whilst we are paying far more for our local services, we are also paying for our prescriptions, our university tuition fees, and still pay tolls on the Severn Crossing! Independence; can't come soon enough for me.
Posted by: Strafin Jun 2 2011, 09:28 PM
No.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Jun 2 2011, 09:44 PM
The Council can't just send bailiffs round without the court order, and you'd have received a summons to defend the application, so something's not right. I suggest that you need to complain to the council, but it's also possible it was someone trying to scam you.
Posted by: user23 Jun 2 2011, 09:52 PM
It might also be that they were acting on behalf of another council other than WBC if he's moved around a bit, however I think you're right that another council would also need a court order.
Posted by: Andy Capp Jun 2 2011, 10:36 PM
Perhaps Strafin should just pay the money he owes before he absconds to the States! 
Posted by: Strafin Jun 3 2011, 06:44 AM
I like that the assumption is that I must owe it. I may well do, if I do I'll pay, it's just frustrating because the last time I went to the head of that departmrnt and went through every address I have had and was assured that we were clear. This cost me a lot because it's £80 for a default and they don't half stack up. I borrowed money from my day to pay the lot in full so that I wouldn't have to go through it again, and have paid in full each year since, str5aight away on debit card so that I have a record. Had a message on my phone from someone to call back so hopefully will sort it today. As regards sending letters, if they are sending them to the address where the think the money is outstanding, then I am not going to recieve them, and I suspect this is the case. Especially after reading TDH's post about bailiffs coming to him.
Posted by: JeffG Jun 3 2011, 01:06 PM
If that's the case, how did they know to find you at your current address?
Posted by: Strafin Jun 3 2011, 03:36 PM
Hey I don' tknow what their processes are, but I guess sending a bailiff costs money, or the bailiff's do their research before attending.
Posted by: Strafin Jun 3 2011, 03:53 PM
Today I spoke to someone in the council who was able to confirm that I did owe them some money - but it was owed from 2008 before I had made a payment to pay the year in full. She explained that it was an oversight on their part at the time, but the bill still stood. I agreed that if I owe it then I am happy to pay, but will that be it? My main issue with the council tax all along has been that I have been told it is paid in full only to find out later that it wasn't and has had charges added to it. The lady I was speaking to was reasonably empathetic, and told me to contact the bailiff and pay it before it got worse. I then enquired as to who is in charge of the council tax department, because I would do as she suggested and then put in my complaint, she didn't want to tell me, so I said it would be Nick Carter or the name she gave me so she suddenly decided the head of departments name was appropriate. Suddenly she was a lot more helpful and has claimed (over the phone at least) to have called the debt back from the bailiff and removed the costs and added the balance to the remainder of my council tax bill for this year, which I am paying on DD. She then asked if I could "appreciate" that she had spent two hours looking over this which I thought was a bit rich seeing as I have pay £86 a letter on top of all the tax and fines that pay more than her wages for doing so. Whilst I appreciate someone has finally taken the time to sort it out, in all fairness it is their fault in the first place, and she is just doing her job.
I asked her if she was happy that all the accounts were now clear of debt and up to date, which she agreed yes they were. I then asked what the additional £600 was on this years bill then, as my wife had also been told the previous day that it shouldn't be there. It turns out I owe that too. Now my problem here is that again I have clarified that everything is payed and up to date, only to be told that actually it isn't. Had I not mentioned it I am sure I would be getting a bailiff in a month or year for more arrears, costs and fines. I have paid this. I have also asked for a letter from the head of department stating that all of my outstanding tax is payed from this point, back to the beginning of time. If I do not recieve one I will go down and kick up a stink, but the lady agreed that the council had made some errors, and that the letter should not be a problem. A full breakdown of every penny I have paid will also be sent for me to compare to my bank statements to make sure they add up. I am not convinced that I owe the £600 but have paid it, and will argue to get it back should I need to.
I am glad to see the end of this (going on for three years) issue, but I will not consider myself safe until I have the confirmation in writing.
Phew! Sorry to rant on but I wanted to cover it in one rather than dragging it out.
Posted by: NWNREADER Jun 3 2011, 04:01 PM
I asked her if she was happy that all the accounts were now clear of debt and up to date, which she agreed yes they were. I then asked what the additional £600 was on this years bill then, as my wife had also been told the previous day that it shouldn't be there. It turns out I owe that too. Now my problem here is that again I have clarified that everything is payed and up to date, only to be told that actually it isn't. Had I not mentioned it I am sure I would be getting a bailiff in a month or year for more arrears, costs and fines. I have paid this. I have also asked for a letter from the head of department stating that all of my outstanding tax is payed from this point, back to the beginning of time. If I do not recieve one I will go down and kick up a stink, but the lady agreed that the council had made some errors, and that the letter should not be a problem. A full breakdown of every penny I have paid will also be sent for me to compare to my bank statements to make sure they add up. I am not convinced that I owe the £600 but have paid it, and will argue to get it back should I need to.
I am glad to see the end of this (going on for three years) issue, but I will not consider myself safe until I have the confirmation in writing.
Phew! Sorry to rant on but I wanted to cover it in one rather than dragging it out.
So part of the reason our council tax is 'so high' is your overdue arrears? 1 down, 5000 to go, then we'll all be better off. US authorities don't mess about - get in arrears and the debt is sold at auction on the steps of city hall. If you think Rossendales/County Court bailiffs are a problem, you ain't seen nothing yet!
Posted by: Strafin Jun 3 2011, 04:30 PM
So part of the reason our council tax is 'so high' is your overdue arrears?
Not quite what I said but certainly one way of looking at it. My main point is that there are plenty of people like me who owe but don't get told therefore it doesn't get paid. It then takes a variety of different people, and therefore wages to get it all sorted out. If WBC had got it right in the first place, there wouldn't be so many arrears. Also, you will see that WBC have had to pay the bailiff costs, that's your tax money.
Posted by: user23 Jun 3 2011, 04:41 PM
Not quite what I said but certainly one way of looking at it. My main point is that there are plenty of people like me who owe but don't get told therefore it doesn't get paid. It then takes a variety of different people, and therefore wages to get it all sorted out. If WBC had got it right in the first place, there wouldn't be so many arrears. Also, you will see that WBC have had to pay the bailiff costs, that's your tax money.
Posted by: NWNREADER Jun 3 2011, 04:50 PM
Not quite what I said but certainly one way of looking at it. My main point is that there are plenty of people like me who owe but don't get told therefore it doesn't get paid. It then takes a variety of different people, and therefore wages to get it all sorted out. If WBC had got it right in the first place, there wouldn't be so many arrears. Also, you will see that WBC have had to pay the bailiff costs, that's your tax money.
At the beginning of the year you were sent a Council Tax Bill (or more than one if you were responsible for several properties)?
Did you pay the amount in full as shown on the bill(s) and before the due time?
If yes, then WBC have goofed.
If no, you are the cause of the problem
The legal costs are added to your debt, and the bailiff fees paid by the Council are your tax money too. Nearly all the time the bailiffs only get involved when someone has not done as they should.
Posted by: Strafin Jun 3 2011, 05:22 PM
No I am paying far more than my fair share in "costs" because WBC failed to get my bill right in the first place. Got to prop up those pensions somehow.
Posted by: Strafin Jun 3 2011, 05:23 PM
Did you pay the amount in full as shown on the bill(s) and before the due time?
If yes, then WBC have goofed. Yes, that is why they have refunded the bailiff costs
If no, you are the cause of the problem
The legal costs are added to your debt, and the bailiff fees paid by the Council are your tax money too. Nearly all the time the bailiffs only get involved when someone has not done as they should. Yes, in this case WBC
Posted by: On the edge Jun 4 2011, 06:02 AM
Strikes me that past arrears notwithstanding the key issue here is that the Council's processes and systems do not seem to be customer centric. In other words it took a huge amount of time and effort to find out what one individual owed. Compliance with data protection rules means that any organisation should be able to provide all the data about enquiring individuals in pretty short order. So, perhaps a process and systems review would be in order here?
Posted by: Andy Capp Jun 4 2011, 08:26 AM
Yes, perhaps it would be worth reporting the authorities to the DPA ombudsman for failure to keep good records?
Posted by: Strafin Jun 4 2011, 08:42 AM
I will be putting my complaint to the relevant authority, I am waiting to see what comes through the post first.
Posted by: Simon Kirby Jun 4 2011, 10:42 AM
Strafin, in fairness to the Council, is it possible that they've been writing to you but that for some reason you haven't been reading or responding to the letters?
Posted by: Strafin Jun 4 2011, 11:43 AM
It doesn't matter, I have gone to them on three seperate occaisions and cleared all outstanding monies owed. I have stood in front of them and questioned every little part and been assured that there are no more charges to come. Then I have recieved further charges. they may well have sent letters to our old address, (where the bills were originally), but they should know better! I am on their register and my files should show my new address. Anyway I am not really interested in being fair to the council as I do not believe they have been fair to me, this has been stressful, upsetting and avoidable.
Posted by: Berkshirelad Jun 4 2011, 05:35 PM
it provides the major source of income for West Berkshire Council. The range of services that the local authority delivers to the community is broad and specialised. Some examples are:
•Education and Learning - adult and community learning, early years and childcare, schools and non-advanced education.
•Health and Social Care - services for children and young people and care services for the elderly and those with disability.
•Community and Living - community events, arts and leisure facilities and libraries.
•Transport and Streets - traffic calming, street naming and numbering, parking, road maintenance and cycle routes.
An amount collected with your Council Tax also pays for Royal Berkshire Fire and Rescue Service, Thames Valley Police Authority and your town or parish council.
I pay £118 a month and would not want to pay more so hope we do not get another increase next year.
I agree about paying into their pension fund, 25% did someone say? Bloody ****, didn't realize it was that much. Not happy about that!!! Funny how that is not on the website
Absolutely, no way, do Councils pay for schools out of council tax. It is a direct central government grant. Of which, the LA may retain up to 15% for central services.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)