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> Newbury's floating shanty town, A sign of the times
Sherlock
post Jan 22 2014, 10:21 AM
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As those who walk on the tow path west of town will know, we have a growing shanty town of boats many of which are clearly occupied full time. A sign of the times: under the coalition increasing numbers are being forced to find this sort of accommodation.

There really is no excuse for this. As we know the useless Libdems and godawful Tories have not only allowed home building to drop to record lows they have also introduced taxpayer funded subsidies to first time buyers to force up prices still further. Osborne has been quoted as telling the Cabinet that this will lead to a 'mini boom in prices which will 'make everyone feel good' (by everyone, he doesn't include those in our floating shanty town I assume). http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8915781/osbornes-bubble/

Incidentally, does anyone know how our floating residents manage waste and sewage disposal? I have no objection to them being there but I hope that this is being taken care of properly.
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JeffG
post Jan 22 2014, 10:46 AM
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This seems a pretty pointless political rant. Some people prefer living on houseboats. It's not usually something forced upon them.

Have you researched the cost of buying and maintaining a narrow boat, and mooring charges etc.?

(I haven't, but I know it's not chickenfeed.)
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Simon Kirby
post Jan 22 2014, 11:47 AM
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QUOTE (Sherlock @ Jan 22 2014, 10:21 AM) *
As we know the useless Libdems and godawful Tories have not only allowed home building to drop to record lows they have also introduced taxpayer funded subsidies to first time buyers to force up prices still further. Osborne has been quoted as telling the Cabinet that this will lead to a 'mini boom in prices which will 'make everyone feel good' (by everyone, he doesn't include those in our floating shanty town I assume). http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8915781/osbornes-bubble/

There is very much wrong with the housing market and I agree with what the Spectator article says - subsidising inflated house-prices is worse than folly.

But there is just too much vested interest here for anyone to do anything about it. A radical simplification of the planning and building control system with a presumption in favour of sustainable development would drastically reduce the price of building land by greatly increasing supply. First-time buyers could buy plots on self-build estates and build their own homes for like £20k, and house prices would drop correspondingly.

However, if you've already got a mortgage the negative equity would be a bit of a bummer and the state would need to step in and either buy the debt of at least oblige lenders to move their negative equity from one house to another.

It would also hurt the land-bank speculators, and I'm not so fussed about that mostly, but some of that corporate speculation pays for pensions and paying for your retirement is already difficult.

But the biggest hurdle to planning reform would be local government who ride this gravy train for all it's worth. They'd have to cut back their planning departments, but they'd also lose one of the most intrusive powers they have over us schlubs, and councillors don't like giving up their power. Even when the town council can't balance their budget they'd sooner add 15% to the precept than lose their pointless planning committee which doesn't even decide anything because planning is a function of the West Berks council.

And there's also an enormous parasitic industry feeding off house-buying with estate agents, various kinds of surveyors, stamp duty, etc.

Our politicians are sell-outs and will never challenge the self-serving establishment, and that is our own fault for electing them.


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Andy Capp
post Jan 22 2014, 12:07 PM
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That's the rub, homes should be for living in, not as investment; however, recent governments have sought to build a never never economy, knowing that our labour costs are too high to compete with the slave labour of the developing economies.

It is ridiculous, we have a less certain job market coupled with a housing market that requires a commitment for the opposite.
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Sherlock
post Jan 22 2014, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Jan 22 2014, 10:46 AM) *
This seems a pretty pointless political rant. Some people prefer living on houseboats. It's not usually something forced upon them.

Have you researched the cost of buying and maintaining a narrow boat, and mooring charges etc.?

(I haven't, but I know it's not chickenfeed.)


1. You clearly haven't seen the boats in question: go and take a look then get back to us. You will realise how idiotic your point is.

2. You're presumably happy with the government's appalling record on housing or you have no idea what's going on (or not going on, to be more precise). Given your remark about 'houseboats' you are certainly clueless about living conditions on the canal. Pointless?? Are you a Libdem, Tory or just clueless (not mutually exclusive categories, obviously)?

http://england.shelter.org.uk/news/februar...hits_record_low
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Bartholomew
post Jan 22 2014, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE (Sherlock @ Jan 22 2014, 01:03 PM) *
1. You clearly haven't seen the boats in question: go and take a look then get back to us. You will realise how idiotic your point is.


I have an I can't see why its an idiotic statement. I have seriously considered living on a canal boat (not because I am forced to but because I want to) and I suspect that my boat would look like these after a while. What I do have more of a problem with is the abandoned boats that clearly are not lived in.
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MontyPython
post Jan 22 2014, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (Sherlock @ Jan 22 2014, 10:21 AM) *
There really is no excuse for this. As we know the useless Libdems and godawful Tories have not only allowed home building to drop to record lows they have also introduced taxpayer funded subsidies to first time buyers to force up prices still further.


Labour assisting the banks in buggering up the economy hasn't helped!
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On the edge
post Jan 22 2014, 02:43 PM
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Ending the particularly English fetish of wanting to own our own house would help significantly. In reality, most of us don't anyway!


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gel
post Jan 22 2014, 05:49 PM
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From Inside Housing magazine of last November:


"Ten thousand Londoners have been driven to live on boats by soaring rents in the capital, a report has claimed.


Extra moorings are needed on the city’s vast network of canals to support the rise in water dwelling residents, the London Assembly environment committee report concludes.

While exact figures are difficult to quantify, a snapshot survey in 2011 found 626 boats moored in London, compared to 957 in 2013.

There are now 4,000 permanently moored and 1,000 temporarily moored residential boats in the capital. Figures from a 2011 suggest an average of two residents per boat.

The report shows that the number of moorings in popular spots has doubled in recent years, waiting lists of several years in some spots."



It says people are choosing to live on boats as a more affordable option, in the face of rising rents and house prices.

Jenny Jones, the London assembly member who led the work on behalf of the committee, said: ‘London’s waterways are one of the hidden gems of our capital and they are becoming increasingly popular as a place for people to live or spend their leisure time.

‘Also, the number of moorings has not kept up with demand. This is resulting in hotspots of overcrowding, which creates issues among boaters and for communities living nearby.’

Can be very difficult for emergency services to reach these locations.
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Exhausted
post Jan 22 2014, 06:35 PM
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The Canal & River Trust have control of the Kennet. They issue licences for moorings and I'm sure they police this to ensure the rules are adhered to. This would include waste disposal. There are heavy penalties for dumping it into the waterway.
http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/lice...e-it-or-lose-it


I'm not sure where Simon gets his figure of 20k from for a house self build. I have a plot of land, perhaps you might build one for me at that price. 120k might be more realistic.
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Simon Kirby
post Jan 22 2014, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jan 22 2014, 06:35 PM) *
The Canal & River Trust have control of the Kennet. They issue licences for moorings and I'm sure they police this to ensure the rules are adhered to. This would include waste disposal. There are heavy penalties for dumping it into the waterway.
http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/lice...e-it-or-lose-it


I'm not sure where Simon gets his figure of 20k from for a house self build. I have a plot of land, perhaps you might build one for me at that price. 120k might be more realistic.

I could build you a modest timber framed building for £20k It would maybe look a bit shed-like, but it would be warm and dry and fully functional.


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Andy Capp
post Jan 22 2014, 08:59 PM
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And before you know it, you have a shanty town on land! tongue.gif
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On the edge
post Jan 22 2014, 09:02 PM
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I think the key issue is good and effective insulation; which need not be expensive. We are very conservative in our building techniques and seem to prefer solid construction which we assume will last for hundreds of years. Yet timber framed, board covered constructions can be much cheaper, much more adaptable and if anything goes wrong (if designed properly) can simply be unscrewed and a replacement slotted in. New housing ought to be win win.


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On the edge
post Jan 22 2014, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 22 2014, 08:59 PM) *
And before you know it, you have a shanty town on land! tongue.gif


Actually a very good point! Our existing planning regulations don't really let us pay proper attention to aesthetics, so yes we do suffer from 'Lego' style offices / storehouses, traditional mass on mass style 'semis' etc etc., all very bland and vanilla! Talk about clone High Streets, we also have clone suburbs, Barrat designs cover the Country - one style suits all!


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x2lls
post Jan 22 2014, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (gel @ Jan 22 2014, 05:49 PM) *
From Inside Housing magazine of last November:


"Ten thousand Londoners have been driven to live on boats by soaring rents in the capital, a report has claimed.


Extra moorings are needed on the city’s vast network of canals to support the rise in water dwelling residents, the London Assembly environment committee report concludes.

While exact figures are difficult to quantify, a snapshot survey in 2011 found 626 boats moored in London, compared to 957 in 2013.

There are now 4,000 permanently moored and 1,000 temporarily moored residential boats in the capital. Figures from a 2011 suggest an average of two residents per boat.

The report shows that the number of moorings in popular spots has doubled in recent years, waiting lists of several years in some spots."



It says people are choosing to live on boats as a more affordable option, in the face of rising rents and house prices.

Jenny Jones, the London assembly member who led the work on behalf of the committee, said: ‘London’s waterways are one of the hidden gems of our capital and they are becoming increasingly popular as a place for people to live or spend their leisure time.

‘Also, the number of moorings has not kept up with demand. This is resulting in hotspots of overcrowding, which creates issues among boaters and for communities living nearby.’

Can be very difficult for emergency services to reach these locations.




What point are you making here?

The headline is discredited by what follows.


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user23
post Jan 22 2014, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (gel @ Jan 22 2014, 05:49 PM) *
From Inside Housing magazine of last November:


"Ten thousand Londoners have been driven to live on boats by soaring rents in the capital, a report has claimed.


Extra moorings are needed on the city’s vast network of canals to support the rise in water dwelling residents, the London Assembly environment committee report concludes.

While exact figures are difficult to quantify, a snapshot survey in 2011 found 626 boats moored in London, compared to 957 in 2013.

There are now 4,000 permanently moored and 1,000 temporarily moored residential boats in the capital. Figures from a 2011 suggest an average of two residents per boat.

The report shows that the number of moorings in popular spots has doubled in recent years, waiting lists of several years in some spots."
This article is all over the place in terms of supporting evidence.
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Simon Kirby
post Jan 22 2014, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 22 2014, 08:59 PM) *
And before you know it, you have a shanty town on land! tongue.gif

Yes. Well, whether they'd be shanties as such I couldn't say as I don't really know what a shanty is, but I very much expect that such developments would get some sort of pejorative name, like chav towns. But the bottom line is that many people could self-build a comfortable 2-bed chalet-bungalow on a 10mx20m plot for £20k in materials including the cost of the land.

And if land-owners aren't prepared to sell their land then I'd be all in favour of local housing associations being given the power of compulsory purchase. The lack of access to land has been a great injustice in this country since the Norman Conquest.

Such housing associations could mandate the style of the chalet so that you couldn't just build a shack from old pallets, and could provide standard architectural plans and even step-by-step instructions on how to self-build. If the self-build movement took off it would be possible for the associations to use their collective strength to negotiate good terms with building merchants and plant hire companies, and there could be professional help on hand for the tasks that the self-builders couldn't take on themselves.

I grew up in Essex and areas of Basildon and Canvey Island were developed with quaint little chalets by returning service-men, and I don't see why we shouldn't allow that again.


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On the edge
post Jan 22 2014, 11:08 PM
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In essence, that's how building societies started; a group of people financing the building of their own houses. The self build idea even occurred in Newbury - there are quite a few, mostly bungalows, much sought after today. In fact, some of the large timber merchants sold 'off the peg' prefabricated modules of a good sturdy design. There is absolutely no reason, save the access to land issue, to stop this happening again. Good looks are probably a personal view, but I'd much rather see a self constructed 'shack' than an economically converted studio flat professionally tacked on the back of an old Victorian terrace.


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Andy Capp
post Jan 22 2014, 11:49 PM
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Insurance cost and a potentially depreciating asset? The best sheds only get 10 years warranty.
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Sherlock
post Jan 23 2014, 12:34 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jan 22 2014, 11:47 AM) *
But there is just too much vested interest here for anyone to do anything about it.


I completely agree with that, Simon. And with everything else you've said. These are just presenting symptoms: the cause of the disease is that our democratic system is broken. Until we fix that there will be nothing that anyone can do about anything.
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