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> West Berks Council breaks a record
x2lls
post Mar 12 2014, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Feb 28 2014, 06:19 PM) *
That is such a crap generalisation... It's an easy stick to wave at the council but such a poor argument when you give it serious analysis. One of my neighbours works in 'the private sector'. His team was 'restructured' and he was paid off with 3 years salary equivalent and various bonus payments due to length of service. He was back in working at the same desk within 3 months as a contractor doing the same job for even more money!

And he wasn't even in the banking sector. THEY are 'private sector' and I doubt whether they smart too much (financially) if they're shown the door...


You cannot simply go straight to your old job as a contractor and not expect there to be penalties to pay.

I was once made redundant, and couldn't go back to do the same job for at least to years due to HMRC rules.


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Simon Kirby
post Mar 12 2014, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Lolly @ Mar 11 2014, 09:43 PM) *
It seems Richard Benyon is hitting back, but not at West Berkshire Council.

http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2...rdbenyonmp.html

The main focus of his criticism appears to be the FOI Act itself. All seemingly based on information given to him by West Berkshire Council!

I agree, it's a perverse response. Perhaps the Tory MP is reluctant to criticise the Tory WBC, but to level criticism at the FoI is unwarranted. If campaigners are using FoI to extract information from reluctant administrations to support their political campaigning then that's a good thing isn't it? It's never occurred to me before the Richard Benyon would have anything to hide and I think he does the thinking-voter a disservice to assume we can't immediately see through the kind of malicious smearing that kicked this story off, but he's gone off on one here by attacking the principle of open government and I think that was ill-judged. I can't think that I've ever had anything negative to say about our MP who, despite his politics not being my own, I've respected as a good MP and a particularly competent Environment minister. Open government, particularly local government, is a virtual fable.

I see our MP's attack on Freedom of Information as a sinister development. It's the devil's own job fighting jiggery-pokery in local government and FoI is one of the most valuable tools in uncovering maladministration, and I'm very disappointed to hear RB slating the right to information just because some sleazy rag used it to get information which embarrassed him - information which WBC seemingly got wrong!


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Simon Kirby
post Mar 12 2014, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Mar 11 2014, 11:18 PM) *
Perhaps a part of the problem is how data and documents are stored and accessed? Also, while it might raise costs to 'manage' the FoI requests, I wonder of the 'fear' of it being actioned might be helping make less visible activities more readily accountable.

I agree on all counts. If there is a costs in administering requests for information then the council needs to look at how to improve their efficiency.

Perhaps their web site is a bit rubbish - I know it's difficult to navigate and the search function is particularly quirky in the relevance of what it turns up. Perhaps they're simply not making enough information available pro-actively - there is no duty under FoI to provide anything if the information is already available somewhere.

The figure of four or five requests each day is also intriguing. I'd be surprised if the number of tricky requests was any more than a couple per year. I would bet that if you looked into it the figure of four or fives per day includes things like people phoning up and asking what day their bins are going to be collected - technically that's a request for information under the Environmental Information Regulations (generically part of FoI), but no one would expect that to be handled with any formality and it's the kind of request for information that any service organisation would expect to field every day of the week.

The real problem for local authorities is that they are required to be open, and that is an enormous challenge for some.


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On the edge
post Mar 12 2014, 07:34 PM
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Their processes and systems do seem to be pretty disconnected. The web site let's you see relevant detail for your postcode. So, using the 'when will my bin be emptied' example, the response came back 'there are multiple records call our help line'. They've spent on what looks a sophisticated solution but can't be bothered to use it! Again designed to impress rather than deliver.

Frankly, if they are only dealing with five requests a day, with the numbers of staff they claim are involved, getting the 'Richard Benyon question' is appalling. I'm also very disappointed he's blaming the wrong cause.

I suppose we'll need an FOI to discover the outcome of the investigation and certainly one to find out how many other errors have been made.


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Cognosco
post Mar 12 2014, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 12 2014, 07:08 PM) *
I agree on all counts. If there is a costs in administering requests for information then the council needs to look at how to improve their efficiency.

Perhaps their web site is a bit rubbish - I know it's difficult to navigate and the search function is particularly quirky in the relevance of what it turns up. Perhaps they're simply not making enough information available pro-actively - there is no duty under FoI to provide anything if the information is already available somewhere.

The figure of four or five requests each day is also intriguing. I'd be surprised if the number of tricky requests was any more than a couple per year. I would bet that if you looked into it the figure of four or fives per day includes things like people phoning up and asking what day their bins are going to be collected - technically that's a request for information under the Environmental Information Regulations (generically part of FoI), but no one would expect that to be handled with any formality and it's the kind of request for information that any service organisation would expect to field every day of the week.

The real problem for local authorities is that they are required to be open, and that is an enormous challenge for some.


It would appear that the young pretender thinks that some of the FOI requests were frivolous? As he hasn't got a clue what the information is required for how can he say that? blink.gif
As we know if you need any information from our local authorities you have to word what you want with minute detail or you get a non answer although probably ten pages long. rolleyes.gif
They want to state they are open and transparent but you have to drag information from them whilst they are kicking and screaming if they don't want you to have that information, which is most of the time! rolleyes.gif



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Andy Capp
post Mar 12 2014, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Mar 12 2014, 07:34 PM) *
I suppose we'll need an FOI to discover the outcome of the investigation and certainly one to find out how many other errors have been made.

That's a good point: perhaps these things highlight a problem with WBC being able to keep and use the information properly?
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Lolly
post Mar 12 2014, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 12 2014, 06:56 PM) *
I agree, it's a perverse response. Perhaps the Tory MP is reluctant to criticise the Tory WBC, but to level criticism at the FoI is unwarranted. If campaigners are using FoI to extract information from reluctant administrations to support their political campaigning then that's a good thing isn't it? It's never occurred to me before the Richard Benyon would have anything to hide and I think he does the thinking-voter a disservice to assume we can't immediately see through the kind of malicious smearing that kicked this story off, but he's gone off on one here by attacking the principle of open government and I think that was ill-judged. I can't think that I've ever had anything negative to say about our MP who, despite his politics not being my own, I've respected as a good MP and a particularly competent Environment minister. Open government, particularly local government, is a virtual fable.

I see our MP's attack on Freedom of Information as a sinister development. It's the devil's own job fighting jiggery-pokery in local government and FoI is one of the most valuable tools in uncovering maladministration, and I'm very disappointed to hear RB slating the right to information just because some sleazy rag used it to get information which embarrassed him - information which WBC seemingly got wrong!


That's pretty much what I thought Simon, but you have expressed it so much better than I could! He seems to be getting a slating online from FOI activists, including the Taxpayers' Alliance, and I can't help feeling that West Berkshire Council have dropped him in it twice - firstly by releasing incorrect and considerably inflated figures and then by giving him 'information' with which to make this attack on FOI.
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Simon Kirby
post Mar 12 2014, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Lolly @ Mar 12 2014, 08:30 PM) *
That's pretty much what I thought Simon, but you have expressed it so much better than I could! He seems to be getting a slating online from FOI activists, including the Taxpayers' Alliance, and I can't help feeling that West Berkshire Council have dropped him in it twice - firstly by releasing incorrect and considerably inflated figures and then by giving him 'information' with which to make this attack on FOI.

Yes, he's obviously been primed with information with which to attack FoI. Take the 4-5 requests per day: these are the requests for information made through WhatDoTheyKnow.com which is typically the route that serious requests take - obviously that's not the sum total of FoI requests the council will receive as pretty much any request for information will technically be covered by FoI/EIR. Total requests made though WhatDoTheyKnow.com this year is 14 - so in the order of 4-5 per month rather than 4-5 per day.


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Simon Kirby
post Mar 12 2014, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE (Lolly @ Mar 12 2014, 08:30 PM) *
That's pretty much what I thought Simon, but you have expressed it so much better than I could! He seems to be getting a slating online from FOI activists, including the Taxpayers' Alliance, and I can't help feeling that West Berkshire Council have dropped him in it twice - firstly by releasing incorrect and considerably inflated figures and then by giving him 'information' with which to make this attack on FOI.

Yes, I see that from Robert Oxley replying to RB on conservativehome.
QUOTE
It’s not the first time I’ve encountered a politician decrying the use of FOI – after all even Tony Blair went on to regret his introduction of the Act. But FOIs are an incredibly important way of scrutinising power and ensuring how taxpayers’ money is spent is held to account. Sadly, it is far too common for a politician or bureaucrat to attack the method by which information was gathered rather than deal with actual subject matter. And invariably any complaint about information published under FOI is always followed up by spurious suggestions that the Act is placing too heavy a burden on those administering it.


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Andy Capp
post Mar 12 2014, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 12 2014, 06:56 PM) *
I can't think that I've ever had anything negative to say about our MP who, despite his politics not being my own, I've respected as a good MP and a particularly competent Environment minister.

While he isn't the worst, I don't know how he has earned your endorsement. He hasn't been without controversy.

http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress...-buzzard-trial/

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/n...on-8215803.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13...d-cover-up.html
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Simon Kirby
post Mar 12 2014, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Mar 12 2014, 09:28 PM) *

It's my deference to authority AC. You can't be an MP without coming in for criticism over something or other, and I don't think he's such a bad stick. Considerably better than some of the slimy articles that we elect to local government.


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Strafin
post Mar 12 2014, 10:51 PM
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http://www.theguardian.com/environment/geo...enyon-interests

I think he's quite a good local MP but was a terrible minister and as bent and corrupt as the rest of them when given the opportunity. The link above has a good summary. Even though it's from The Guardian.
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Andy Capp
post Mar 12 2014, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 12 2014, 09:39 PM) *
It's my deference to authority AC. You can't be an MP without coming in for criticism over something or other, and I don't think he's such a bad stick. Considerably better than some of the slimy articles that we elect to local government.

I'm not sure how easy it is to compare. It's easy to claim no expenses when you are very wealthy for instance. My view of Mr Benyon is that he is run-of-the-mill, although some of his decisions did look iffy.

It's when politicians fail to explain themselves fully when I get suspicious.
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Lolly
post Mar 13 2014, 07:20 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Mar 12 2014, 11:24 PM) *
I'm not sure how easy it is to compare. It's easy to claim no expenses when you are very wealthy for instance. My view of Mr Benyon is that he is run-of-the-mill, although some of his decisions did look iffy.

It's when politicians fail to explain themselves fully when I get suspicious.


I agree that some of his Ministerial decisions look a bit iffy, especially as written up in the Newspapers, but to be honest he was always going to be an easy target given his wealthy background - i've heard the 'It's easy to claim no expenses when you are very wealthy' comment many times and even thought it myself, but he didn't choose to be born wealthy and he didn't take the easy path into Parliament ( public school, Oxbridge etc) taken by many of his contemporaries of all political persuasions. I wonder how many other Conservative MP's have served their time on their Local Authority for instance.

I do agree that I'd like a fuller explanation of how the housing benefit system works and whether Mr Benyon ( or his Estate Managers) could be reasonably expected to know how much public money passes directly or indirectly to them. There seems to be an inconsistency between his denial of the initial figures and his statement that he couldn't be expected to know what they were, but that may just be the way it is written up in the press.
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Andy Capp
post Mar 13 2014, 09:26 AM
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I don't blame him for being wealthy, I just don't see it as a powerful argument for his or others integrity. The same could be said about all the leaders to some degree. The argument also puts an unreasonable pressure on others less fortunate.
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On the edge
post Mar 13 2014, 09:59 AM
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Politics really reflects society in general these days. There are very few politicians who aren't out on a power trip of their own. We have lost those who were trying to deliver a collective or even personal conviction. Attlee, Bevan and co actually wanted to make a better society, Chamberlain wanted to make life more bearable for poor people, etc. They and their like actually sacrificed the possibility of great personal wealth to do that. Today, it's all me and how much I can grab.

Coop is a perfect example. The CEO brought in to turn it round has resigned because is ungovernable. That's really very sad. What he's actually saying is 'I didn't have a blind clue as to what the Coop is supposed to be doing and I'm a crap leader'. His standard commercial aggressive grab it all and give it to me approach is the only one he knows.


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JeffG
post Mar 13 2014, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Mar 13 2014, 09:59 AM) *
Coop is a perfect example. The CEO brought in to turn it round has resigned because is ungovernable.
...
His standard commercial aggressive grab it all and give it to me approach is the only one he knows.

You know him well then?
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On the edge
post Mar 13 2014, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Mar 13 2014, 02:22 PM) *
You know him well then?

I'm a (bitterly disappointed) formerly active Cooperative member so I may well. However, resigning so soon after the appointment on what is at root a leadership issue demonstrates a one trick pony.


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