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Newbury Today Forum _ Newbury News _ What a caring for the environment lot Newbury folk are.

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 11 2018, 12:30 PM

As one who trundles along the canal towpath at regular intervals, monitoring the accumulating rubbish is second nature so witnessing the mass clean up a few weeks back, which was well publicised, one would imagine that it would stay reasonably clean for a good period of time. But oh no, it's as bad as before the clean up so what is wrong with people? Safe to assume it is "local" rubbish so why not dispose of it in the nearest bin? All this furore over supermarkets using less plastic is pointless if the great unwashed are still going to dump their rubbish. Bit like blaming the car manufacturer because it's product breaks the speed limit. angry.gif angry.gif

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Mar 11 2018, 12:52 PM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 11 2018, 12:30 PM) *
As one who trundles along the canal towpath at regular intervals, monitoring the accumulating rubbish is second nature so witnessing the mass clean up a few weeks back, which was well publicised, one would imagine that it would stay reasonably clean for a good period of time. But oh no, it's as bad as before the clean up so what is wrong with people? Safe to assume it is "local" rubbish so why not dispose of it in the nearest bin? All this furore over supermarkets using less plastic is pointless if the great unwashed are still going to dump their rubbish. Bit like blaming the car manufacturer because it's product breaks the speed limit. angry.gif angry.gif


You won't.ever win the battle against litter. Tooo many scumbags who finish there 4 pack and chuck it. I was stupid enough once to ask some yobbbos to pick up the timnies they had just discarded in the City Playground and was threatened with violence. They are all big and hard when they are a group and you are an individual. But get them on there own and they are wimps.

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 11 2018, 02:05 PM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Mar 11 2018, 12:52 PM) *
You won't.ever win the battle against litter. Tooo many scumbags who finish there 4 pack and chuck it. I was stupid enough once to ask some yobbbos to pick up the timnies they had just discarded in the City Playground and was threatened with violence. They are all big and hard when they are a group and you are an individual. But get them on there own and they are wimps.


This is were the yanks have an advantage. "Pick up yer littler punk". "F***k off Grandad". Have .38 will travel. BANG!........Next cool.gif

Posted by: Biker1 Mar 14 2018, 08:30 AM

Seems our dopey council care not for the environment either what with slapping a £50 charge for collection of green waste on top of a outrageous 6% tax rise?!!! angry.gif
I predict a marked increase of green waste going to landfill and fly tipping .

Posted by: je suis Charlie Mar 14 2018, 09:55 AM

Indeed, I for one will be having many more bonfires, sod the neighbors. It's going to be a point of honour, I pay council tax for Christ sake, they wanted us to recycle, recycle more and more. Stuck a thing on the green bin that said ' feed me ' now the buggers want to charge me more on top of the outrageous increase in tax. What I can't burn will go in sacks into the black bin. All while the police commissioner gets fat.

Posted by: Biker1 Mar 14 2018, 11:12 AM

QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Mar 14 2018, 10:55 AM) *
Indeed, I for one will be having many more bonfires, sod the neighbors. It's going to be a point of honour, I pay council tax for Christ sake, they wanted us to recycle, recycle more and more. Stuck a thing on the green bin that said ' feed me ' now the buggers want to charge me more on top of the outrageous increase in tax. What I can't burn will go in sacks into the black bin.

Likewise.
Refusing to pay it is a matter of principle.
They claim it will raise £900,000.
That would assume that 18,000 households are going to pay it?
Surely there aren't that many mugs in the District?? unsure.gif

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 14 2018, 12:09 PM

This council are idiots, give millions of pounds of land away to greedy developers for nowt then pull this stunt. Unbelievable! They need sacking, the lot of them. Next they'll ***** about flytipping and talk about "educating" us! Pillocks!

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 14 2018, 12:30 PM

Have they actually proposed how it will work? Will each property that has subscribed to their idea have a "yes" bin and the rest of us a "no" bin? I can see a few going missing. Frightening when you think these people are running the show.

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 14 2018, 01:10 PM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 14 2018, 12:30 PM) *
Have they actually proposed how it will work? Will each property that has subscribed to their idea have a "yes" bin and the rest of us a "no" bin? I can see a few going missing. Frightening when you think these people are running the show.

If you subscribe you get a sticker, if not it's not collected.

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 14 2018, 04:07 PM

QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Mar 14 2018, 01:10 PM) *
If you subscribe you get a sticker, if not it's not collected.


Yet another money making idea thanks to those who can not see further than their nose. Similar to the old train ticket scam using a platform ticket and six of us could travel for a 6d, all we need is one ticket a photocopier and an ebay account.
Halcyon days. wink.gif

Posted by: Cognosco Mar 14 2018, 04:38 PM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 14 2018, 04:07 PM) *
Yet another money making idea thanks to those who can not see further than their nose. Similar to the old train ticket scam using a platform ticket and six of us could travel for a 6d, all we need is one ticket a photocopier and an ebay account.
Halcyon days. wink.gif


So those who opt out will get a reduction on the Council Tax bill then as they are paying for the green bin collection at the present time?

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 14 2018, 04:40 PM

That, Mon Ami, wouldn't have even crossed their minds.

Posted by: newres Mar 14 2018, 06:20 PM

I've been in Grimsby this and last week. You lot don't know you're born. Dog s h i t everywhere, litter like you wouldn't believe.



Posted by: je suis Charlie Mar 14 2018, 06:57 PM

QUOTE (newres @ Mar 14 2018, 06:20 PM) *
I've been in Grimsby this and last week. You lot don't know you're born. Dog s h i t everywhere, litter like you wouldn't believe.



Thereby raising the average IQ of both towns.

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 14 2018, 06:58 PM

We have these bills because we voted for a tax cutting government. They slashed the local settlement.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Mar 14 2018, 09:41 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Mar 14 2018, 06:58 PM) *
We have these bills because we voted for a tax cutting government. They slashed the local settlement.

I blame Corbyn and the EU.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Mar 14 2018, 09:51 PM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Mar 14 2018, 09:41 PM) *
I blame Corbyn and the EU.

I blame newres and his anti Semitism!

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 15 2018, 06:36 AM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Mar 14 2018, 09:41 PM) *
I blame Corbyn and the EU.

Funny enough, the said government could be responsible for those two as well.

Posted by: Biker1 Mar 15 2018, 08:38 AM

QUOTE (newres @ Mar 14 2018, 07:20 PM) *
I've been in Grimsby this and last week. You lot don't know you're born. Dog s h i t everywhere, litter like you wouldn't believe.

Is that the same Grimsby who's fishing industry has been decimated by the fishing rights of the EU which we now propose to allow them to retain?

Posted by: newres Mar 15 2018, 10:00 AM

QUOTE (Biker1 @ Mar 15 2018, 08:38 AM) *
Is that the same Grimsby who's fishing industry has been decimated by the fishing rights of the EU which we now propose to allow them to retain?

If we propose to stick with the policy it can only be because by doing so we gain more than we lose. Itís called not cutting off oneís nose to spite oneís face because no matter how much we might like to live in the past, we have to accept we are in a global marketplace and by sticking with the EU we are at least peripherally part of a major player.

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 15 2018, 11:43 AM

QUOTE (newres @ Mar 15 2018, 10:00 AM) *
If we propose to stick with the policy it can only be because by doing so we gain more than we lose. Itís called not cutting off oneís nose to spite oneís face because no matter how much we might like to live in the past, we have to accept we are in a global marketplace and by sticking with the EU we are at least peripherally part of a major player.


Something like, we let them have fishing rights in our coastal waters in exchange they send us german cars without restriction? Brilliant deal! This brexit deal should be done and dusted by easter. Little wonder the ruskies put two fingers up to us. angry.gif

Posted by: newres Mar 15 2018, 12:12 PM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 15 2018, 11:43 AM) *
Something like, we let them have fishing rights in our coastal waters in exchange they send us german cars without restriction? Brilliant deal! This brexit deal should be done and dusted by easter. Little wonder the ruskies put two fingers up to us. angry.gif

rolleyes.gif

Posted by: blackdog Mar 15 2018, 01:11 PM

QUOTE (Biker1 @ Mar 14 2018, 11:12 AM) *
Likewise.
Refusing to pay it is a matter of principle.
They claim it will raise £900,000.
That would assume that 18,000 households are going to pay it?
Surely there aren't that many mugs in the District?? unsure.gif


The council tactic is obvious - slap on a charge and hope no one pays it, then stop the collection alltogether and save the £900k they currently pay Veolia to collect it.

Posted by: Cognosco Mar 16 2018, 05:26 PM

QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 15 2018, 01:11 PM) *
The council tactic is obvious - slap on a charge and hope no one pays it, then stop the collection alltogether and save the £900k they currently pay Veolia to collect it.


But then there will be far more going to landfill as people will put food waste etc and obviously grass cuttings, in bin bags, in the general waste bins. Also less green waste going for composting which I understand the council currently make money from! rolleyes.gif

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 16 2018, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Cognosco @ Mar 16 2018, 05:26 PM) *
But then there will be far more going to landfill as people will put food waste etc and obviously grass cuttings, in bin bags, in the general waste bins. Also less green waste going for composting which I understand the council currently make money from! rolleyes.gif


Different budget. rolleyes.gif On a similar note, why do people throw food away? I thought the idea was to eat it.

Posted by: Cognosco Mar 16 2018, 08:06 PM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 16 2018, 07:10 PM) *
Different budget. rolleyes.gif On a similar note, why do people throw food away? I thought the idea was to eat it.


Vegetable peelings, tea bags, etc. However good you are there is always food waste in any good kitchen. and not everyone has facilities for making home compost. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: blackdog Mar 16 2018, 11:51 PM

QUOTE (Cognosco @ Mar 16 2018, 05:26 PM) *
But then there will be far more going to landfill as people will put food waste etc and obviously grass cuttings, in bin bags, in the general waste bins. Also less green waste going for composting which I understand the council currently make money from! rolleyes.gif

Do the council make anything from recycling? I would have thought that would be a Veolia perk.

Posted by: Cognosco Mar 17 2018, 12:33 AM

QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 16 2018, 11:51 PM) *
Do the council make anything from recycling? I would have thought that would be a Veolia perk.


I may be incorrect on the Council making money, not sure to be honest I know a neighbour who is a keen gardener buys it. But the point is that all the current kitchen waste etc will now go to landfill which creates tons of methane when slowly rotting in landfill. Unless of course all the present green waste bins are paid for?
Can you really expect that to happen? rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 17 2018, 01:14 PM

After years of telling us to recycle more they then ensure people will recycle less. It's a debacle.

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 17 2018, 03:54 PM

QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Mar 17 2018, 01:14 PM) *
After years of telling us to recycle more they then ensure people will recycle less. It's a debacle.


And still we don't know which plastics go in which bin. Maybe councils have no idea either so they muddy the pond further by charging twice for stuff that will end up in landfill.
Poor joe bloggs at the end of the line is expected to shoulder the disposal cost of something that is not of his making. Why can't all items that require plastic packaging use a product that is recyclable? If this part of the equation was rectified maybe the green waste removal would not be such a financial issue.

Posted by: blackdog Mar 17 2018, 07:41 PM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 17 2018, 03:54 PM) *
And still we don't know which plastics go in which bin. Maybe councils have no idea either so they muddy the pond further by charging twice for stuff that will end up in landfill.
Poor joe bloggs at the end of the line is expected to shoulder the disposal cost of something that is not of his making. Why can't all items that require plastic packaging use a product that is recyclable? If this part of the equation was rectified maybe the green waste removal would not be such a financial issue.


It's not that easy - after all WBC will only cycle some recyclable plastics, not all of them. Councils need to be forced to recycle all recyclable materials - for instance aluminium, why don't WBC recycle something so easy to recycle?

Posted by: blackdog Mar 17 2018, 08:02 PM

QUOTE (Cognosco @ Mar 17 2018, 12:33 AM) *
I may be incorrect on the Council making money, not sure to be honest I know a neighbour who is a keen gardener buys it. But the point is that all the current kitchen waste etc will now go to landfill which creates tons of methane when slowly rotting in landfill. Unless of course all the present green waste bins are paid for?
Can you really expect that to happen? rolleyes.gif


There will, of course, be resistance to the new charge, and those using it least will be the most able to cope without it. Bigger families with a small garden will be the most peeved, already complaining about having fortnightly collection because the black bin fills up - so little room for the grass cuttings.

It is the big users who are most likely to pay up - and they provide most of the green waste. It will be interesting to see what transpires in the recycling figures.

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 18 2018, 09:22 AM

QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 17 2018, 07:41 PM) *
It's not that easy - after all WBC will only cycle some recyclable plastics, not all of them. Councils need to be forced to recycle all recyclable materials - for instance aluminium, why don't WBC recycle something so easy to recycle?


I was not aware that they didn't recycle aluminium, which shows just how much of a blind alley the public find themselves in. Plastic seems to be the main culprit so, as you say, why don't they recycle ALL plastic?
Now they tell me that the humble tea bag contains plastic which is not an ideal for "green" waste. This may be logical when one thinks about it but how many of us did? No, before they start placing the burden on the tax payer they need to have a universal approach.

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 18 2018, 12:52 PM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 18 2018, 09:22 AM) *
I was not aware that they didn't recycle aluminium, which shows just how much of a blind alley the public find themselves in. Plastic seems to be the main culprit so, as you say, why don't they recycle ALL plastic?
Now they tell me that the humble tea bag contains plastic which is not an ideal for "green" waste. This may be logical when one thinks about it but how many of us did? No, before they start placing the burden on the tax payer they need to have a universal approach.

Where does it say you can't recycle aluminium?

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 18 2018, 01:10 PM

QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Mar 18 2018, 12:52 PM) *
Where does it say you can't recycle aluminium?


Post 31. I was replying to the post not posing the question. They may well do in which case the odd aluminium can that I use ends up in the correct bin.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Mar 18 2018, 06:57 PM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 18 2018, 01:10 PM) *
Post 31. I was replying to the post not posing the question. They may well do in which case the odd aluminium can that I use ends up in the correct bin.

They specify that they want soft drink cans. Ergo aluminium.

Posted by: Berkshirelad Mar 18 2018, 10:45 PM

QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Mar 18 2018, 06:57 PM) *
They specify that they want soft drink cans. Ergo aluminium.


...but not aluminium foil or wrapping.

The one I really don't understand is that sheets of paper can go in the recycling but shredded paper is not allowed.

Posted by: blackdog Mar 19 2018, 01:45 AM

QUOTE (Berkshirelad @ Mar 18 2018, 10:45 PM) *
...but not aluminium foil or wrapping.

Or aluminium pie trays, pet food containers, etc. If it ain't a can send it to landfill.


Posted by: je suis Charlie Mar 19 2018, 07:17 AM

QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 19 2018, 01:45 AM) *
Or aluminium pie trays, pet food containers, etc. If it ain't a can send it to landfill.

I sometimes thing they, and we are just playing at recycling. It all seems just for show with no real content at all, there must be a market somewhere for all this stuff, what about bottle tops for instance? Why can't we recycle those?

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 19 2018, 09:12 AM

QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Mar 19 2018, 07:17 AM) *
I sometimes thing they, and we are just playing at recycling. It all seems just for show with no real content at all, there must be a market somewhere for all this stuff, what about bottle tops for instance? Why can't we recycle those?


Agreement there. Easy to lay the problem at the consumer's door whilst not having a coherent policy to tackle it. In terms of usage I probably dispose of more non recyclable plastic than reusable. Seems to me that they are ok with milk containers, ( 1 / week ), but yoghurt pots which appear to be the same material, ( 1 / day ), are designated to the black bin along with all the lids.

Posted by: GrumblingAgain Mar 19 2018, 09:20 AM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Mar 14 2018, 06:58 PM) *
We have these bills because we voted for a tax cutting government. They slashed the local settlement.

How come we had ludicrously high council tax increases when the Lib Dems were last in charge of WBC? Don't recall it being the Tories in Government slashing funding to councils then. Do remember our increases being either the highest or second highest in the country.

QUOTE (Biker1 @ Mar 14 2018, 08:30 AM) *
Seems our dopey council care not for the environment either what with slapping a £50 charge for collection of green waste on top of a outrageous 6% tax rise?!!! angry.gif
I predict a marked increase of green waste going to landfill and fly tipping .

Thank goodness we don't have a Lib Dem run council then - it would be far more than a 6% rise then. More like 36%.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Mar 19 2018, 09:54 AM

And why not ALL aluminium? Horrendously expensive to refine, surely it must be more cost effective to recycle?

Posted by: Biker1 Mar 19 2018, 04:21 PM

QUOTE (GrumblingAgain @ Mar 19 2018, 10:20 AM) *
How come we had ludicrously high council tax increases when the Lib Dems were last in charge of WBC? Don't recall it being the Tories in Government slashing funding to councils then. Do remember our increases being either the highest or second highest in the country.

Agreed, yes I remember those double figure increases very well! angry.gif

QUOTE (GrumblingAgain @ Mar 19 2018, 10:20 AM) *
Thank goodness we don't have a Lib Dem run council then - it would be far more than a 6% rise then. More like 36%.

It would indeed! Still doesn't justify it though I think?

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 19 2018, 05:07 PM

Have to pay for all that land they gave away somehow. Not to mention those salaries and pensions.

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 19 2018, 06:14 PM

QUOTE (GrumblingAgain @ Mar 19 2018, 09:20 AM) *
How come we had ludicrously high council tax increases when the Lib Dems were last in charge of WBC? Don't recall it being the Tories in Government slashing funding to councils then. Do remember our increases being either the highest or second highest in the country

When it was the LDs, it was still the government cutting settlements; however, I donít remember the Torys handing anything back either.

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 19 2018, 07:32 PM

Still not clearing litter though. I despair sometimes. We can give prime development land away, spend hundreds of thousands on cafes, vanity projects abound. But we can't get the recycling done, borrow a library book or use a loo. Progress huh.

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 19 2018, 08:03 PM

QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Mar 19 2018, 07:32 PM) *
Still not clearing litter though. I despair sometimes. We can give prime development land away, spend hundreds of thousands on cafes, vanity projects abound. But we can't get the recycling done, borrow a library book or use a loo. Progress huh.

Youíve redeemed yourself; post of the year.

Posted by: Mr Brown Mar 19 2018, 09:54 PM

QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Mar 19 2018, 07:32 PM) *
Still not clearing litter though. I despair sometimes. We can give prime development land away, spend hundreds of thousands on cafes, vanity projects abound. But we can't get the recycling done, borrow a library book or use a loo. Progress huh.


And yet you'll still vote for them!

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 20 2018, 09:29 AM

QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Mar 19 2018, 09:54 PM) *
And yet you'll still vote for them!


And thereby lies the problem. Those who should be in local government are precluded by the fact they wouldn't want the job which leaves those who think they can do it but patently can't.
Perhaps we should abstain from using the ballot box?

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 20 2018, 11:12 AM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 20 2018, 09:29 AM) *
And thereby lies the problem. Those who should be in local government are precluded by the fact they wouldn't want the job which leaves those who think they can do it but patently can't.
Perhaps we should abstain from using the ballot box?

Most people do anyway, have you seen the turnout figures?

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 20 2018, 12:26 PM

QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Mar 20 2018, 11:12 AM) *
Most people do anyway, have you seen the turnout figures?


And they are the ones at the front of the queue when it comes to complaining over how things are run. I think it's only fair to say that any government, ( local or national ), is only as competent as the opposition members allow. Sort of "Peter principle" in politics.
Now that is a conspiracy theory to contemplate. cool.gif

Posted by: blackdog Mar 21 2018, 09:43 AM

QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Mar 20 2018, 12:26 PM) *
And they are the ones at the front of the queue when it comes to complaining over how things are run. I think it's only fair to say that any government, ( local or national ), is only as competent as the opposition members allow. Sort of "Peter principle" in politics.
Now that is a conspiracy theory to contemplate. cool.gif

It doesn't help when the opposition is outnumbered 12 to 1.

We may complain, but it is the electorate, us, that puts them in place (and the council officers who tell them what to do).

Posted by: je suis Charlie Mar 21 2018, 11:37 AM

QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 21 2018, 09:43 AM) *
It doesn't help when the opposition is outnumbered 12 to 1.

We may complain, but it is the electorate, us, that puts them in place (and the council officers who tell them what to do).

Oh the irony rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Cognosco Mar 21 2018, 03:29 PM

QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 21 2018, 09:43 AM) *
It doesn't help when the opposition is outnumbered 12 to 1.

We may complain, but it is the electorate, us, that puts them in place (and the council officers who tell them what to do).


so much for democracy then eh? rolleyes.gif

Posted by: SirWilliam Mar 21 2018, 04:59 PM

QUOTE (Cognosco @ Mar 21 2018, 03:29 PM) *
so much for democracy then eh? rolleyes.gif


To paraphrase the late Eric Morecambe " the voters put the right cross but in the wrong place" . laugh.gif

Posted by: On the edge Apr 2 2018, 06:27 PM

I really don't know why anyone turns up to vote in a local election, there really isn't any point. if you must go, just spoil your ballot paper - that really does wind up the bureaucratic mind! At least 10 minutes fun on a dull count night.

Posted by: The Hatter Apr 2 2018, 08:37 PM

QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 2 2018, 07:27 PM) *
I really don't know why anyone turns up to vote in a local election, there really isn't any point. if you must go, just spoil your ballot paper - that really does wind up the bureaucratic mind! At least 10 minutes fun on a dull count night.


Oh, I always thought that the West Berks count was low because the locals didn't like signing anything. laugh.gif

Posted by: je suis Charlie Apr 3 2018, 12:39 AM

QUOTE (The Hatter @ Apr 2 2018, 09:37 PM) *
Oh, I always thought that the West Berks count was low because the locals didn't like signing anything. laugh.gif

That's okay, they let labour scrawl a cross on everything.

Posted by: Strafin Apr 3 2018, 02:43 PM

QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 2 2018, 07:27 PM) *
I really don't know why anyone turns up to vote in a local election, there really isn't any point. if you must go, just spoil your ballot paper - that really does wind up the bureaucratic mind! At least 10 minutes fun on a dull count night.

I've been to loads of counts. Nobody cares, they just get piled up to the side.

Posted by: je suis Charlie Apr 3 2018, 05:44 PM

QUOTE (Strafin @ Apr 3 2018, 03:43 PM) *
I've been to loads of counts. Nobody cares, they just get piled up to the side.

Of course they don't, why would they? If someone is stupid enough to turn out just to spoil his paper it's probably a good thing to ignore them anyways! laugh.gif

Posted by: On the edge Apr 8 2018, 02:58 PM

QUOTE (Strafin @ Apr 3 2018, 03:43 PM) *
I've been to loads of counts. Nobody cares, they just get piled up to the side.


There is certainly a view from the Electoral Commission, that particularly where it had been done in conjuction with a reasoned campaign, a significantly greater than normal number of 'spoils' may well represent growing discontent. The LibDem activists locally generally display a degree of irritation, but that might be simply down to the personalities of those they choose to let attend.

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