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Andy Capp
post May 21 2014, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (pbonnay @ May 21 2014, 06:07 PM) *
To briefly mention HS2....

I have sympathy for the proponents of HS2. Some people say why can't we have a high speed rail network like they have on the Continent, and then object to us building one.

I remember the row about the M25. When it was finally built, people then complained that there weren't any service stations/rest areas - what, on the same green belt you didn't want built on in the first place?

This deserves another thread.
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Andy Capp
post May 21 2014, 05:24 PM
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I'm split. I think it is a tremendous amount of money, and all the time we have such an expensive train service. When people say they want high speed, that is fine, but outside of business, I'm not sure it is vital. I have also heard that the idea that it will help other towns and cities compete is a false argument: it can have the opposite effect.
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Lolly
post May 21 2014, 05:28 PM
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I think the point made ( on the other thread) was that people are trying to find out what information the decision to go ahead was based upon.

I'm afraid I can't see the benefits to Joe Public, especially those who live in West Berkshire!
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pbonnay
post May 21 2014, 05:46 PM
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The money spent on HS2 would not necessarily be spent elsewhere. There would also be a huge positive knock-on effect for UK plc in jobs and economic activity in building it.

I know that in Spain, building a high speed line from Madrid down to Seville did not have the desired effect, but that had a lot to do with the way it was funded and the general economy. Birmingham and Manchester are already established areas of high population and business.

When I used to fly from Manchester back to London, sometimes half the time in the air was stacking and waiting for a landing slot on a Friday evening. HS2 is as much about capacity as speed.

Electric trains can be powered by much greener energy than any plane, and if more people used the train then it would also alleviate congestion at LHR.
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Lolly
post May 21 2014, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (pbonnay @ May 21 2014, 06:46 PM) *
The money spent on HS2 would not necessarily be spent elsewhere.


In which case wouldn't it reduce our deficit?

QUOTE (pbonnay @ May 21 2014, 06:46 PM) *
There would also be a huge positive knock-on effect for UK plc in jobs and economic activity in building it.


Depends rather on who the contracts are awarded to. I have heard this argument quite a lot, but I'm not sure that I believe it. I think that's what people are trying to find out.

QUOTE (pbonnay @ May 21 2014, 06:46 PM) *
I know that in Spain, building a high speed line from Madrid down to Seville did not have the desired effect, but that had a lot to do with the way it was funded and the general economy. Birmingham and Manchester are already established areas of high population and business.


So wouldn't it be better for the businesses to employ locally?

QUOTE (pbonnay @ May 21 2014, 06:46 PM) *
When I used to fly from Manchester back to London, sometimes half the time in the air was stacking and waiting for a landing slot on a Friday evening. HS2 is as much about capacity as speed.


Don't know too much about UK flight routes, but i would have thought some of the regional airports would be a better bet than HR for people based in and around Newbury?

QUOTE (pbonnay @ May 21 2014, 06:46 PM) *
Electric trains can be powered by much greener energy than any plane, and if more people used the train then it would also alleviate congestion at LHR.


Yes but presumably there will be congestion at the train stations?
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Andy Capp
post May 21 2014, 06:14 PM
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My scepticism is born out of the feeling that the case has not been suitably made. I think many of us have become so disillusioned with how government works, we smell a rat when ever something like this is proposed.
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motormad
post May 21 2014, 06:18 PM
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Trains are HORRIBLE places to be.
You rarely get a seat.
If you do you end up sat next to some hideously fat person who smells of fondue.



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On the edge
post May 21 2014, 06:22 PM
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It certainly is more about capacity and attempting to enliven the other major cities in UK. After all, right now London is the UK as far and the rest of the World is concerned. I sincerely hope it works, if not, we have a massive national problem!

That we are essentially rebuilding what was ripped up back in the Sixties (Marples, the road builder's axe) is a monument to short termisim. The old Great Central mainline was constructed to the continental loading gauge and went to the right places. Never mind.


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On the edge
post May 21 2014, 06:23 PM
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QUOTE (motormad @ May 21 2014, 07:18 PM) *
Trains are HORRIBLE places to be.
You rarely get a seat.
If you do you end up sat next to some hideously fat person who smells of fondue.


What, Clarkson goes by train? laugh.gif


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motormad
post May 21 2014, 06:33 PM
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no but unfortunately i do


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pbonnay
post May 21 2014, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Lolly @ May 21 2014, 07:09 PM) *
Depends rather on who the contracts are awarded to. I have heard this argument quite a lot, but I'm not sure that I believe it. I think that's what people are trying to find out.

Well the people who build it would be employed in UK and paying UK tax. They would also need all the support services, again more UK jobs.

QUOTE (Lolly @ May 21 2014, 07:09 PM) *
So wouldn't it be better for the businesses to employ locally?

They already do in many cases, but as companies grow they have different places of operation and workers need to travel.

QUOTE (Lolly @ May 21 2014, 07:09 PM) *
Don't know too much about UK flight routes, but i would have thought some of the regional airports would be a better bet than HR for people based in and around Newbury?

In building a new national rail network, I think the argument is bigger than Newbury. blink.gif

QUOTE (Lolly @ May 21 2014, 07:09 PM) *
Yes but presumably there will be congestion at the train stations?

It's cheaper to build platforms than runways, if that is your concern. If an electric train does have to wait for a platform, it is not burning tonnes of fuel keeping it airborne?
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MontyPython
post May 21 2014, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (motormad @ May 21 2014, 07:18 PM) *
Trains are HORRIBLE places to be.
You rarely get a seat.
If you do you end up sat next to some hideously fat person who smells of fondue.


Sorry you didn't like my new after shave, I'll change it next time. laugh.gif
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MontyPython
post May 21 2014, 07:02 PM
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trains are very good for City to City travel. The problem is when the trying to get onward connections to suburbs or surrounding towns.
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Lolly
post May 21 2014, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (MontyPython @ May 21 2014, 08:02 PM) *
trains are very good for City to City travel. The problem is when the trying to get onward connections to suburbs or surrounding towns.


Precisely! And if you don't live in a suburb or town with a station ( eg if you live in a village or on the outskirts of a market town such as Newbury you are reliant on the bus service or a car which you have to park somewhere.
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gel
post May 21 2014, 08:41 PM
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Far better to invest in upgrading the national network; from last Friday's authoritative Building magazine:

Spending on consultants working on the first phase of the HS2 project is currently running 86% over budget, government spending figures have shown, with the revelation set to bolster opposition to the £43bn project.

An analysis by Building of the Department for Transport (DfT) HS2 spending to the end of February 2014 has revealed that HS2 Ltd has overshot its allocated £101m budget for four lots of professional services contracts by £87m, taking the total spend to £188m - 86% over budget.

We have seen such huge overspends in past on grand projects! mellow.gif
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pbonnay
post May 21 2014, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE (gel @ May 21 2014, 09:41 PM) *
We have seen such huge overspends in past on grand projects! mellow.gif


Yes, the Channel Tunnel is an example. At one point the financial backers were going to pull out because of an 86% cost overrun. But it got constructed and is now well used.
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The Optimist
post May 21 2014, 09:14 PM
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Whatever they do, let's at least make sure the trains will fit the stations, unlike, for instance, the French biggrin.gif
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The Hatter
post May 21 2014, 09:31 PM
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We aren't much better. The Eurostar platforms at Waterloo were left empty for years.
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Biker1
post May 22 2014, 04:16 PM
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Bearing in mind the ever growing population of this country and the increasing price and scarcity of fuel do we .....
Build more railways
Build more roads
Build more runways
Reduce the need for travel
Do nothing
? blink.gif
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Andy Capp
post May 22 2014, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ May 22 2014, 05:16 PM) *
Bearing in mind the ever growing population of this country and the increasing price and scarcity of fuel do we .....
Build more railways
Build more roads
Build more runways
Reduce the need for travel
Do nothing
? blink.gif

...or make journeys more efficient.
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