Another long road closure by TVP, A fatal RTA yes; but 12 hours road closure Options

[On the edge]

Who are "we"? Yes it was obvious it was a quotation, and no I have not read the book (presumably I am the only one reading this forum who hasn't), but I know enough that it's usual practice to credit a quotation.

Royalty, JeffG, Royalty. Remember we are the Royal County of Berkshire so Dannyboy is simply keeping up with the Jonese or the Middletons, or whoever!

[motormad]

On the open road yes. Driving like Jezza is fine on a track, but that isn't what this discussion is about.

Saw some twerp in a vintage mustang a few weeks back on the London road. He floored it out of the BP garage so that the car fishtailed to almost 90° to the kerb, luckily for him he was able to correct the slide & wheel spin it towards the B&Q roundabout.

Not good drving on the open road at all, but gave the boy racers also in the BP garage a quick thrill....

Oh no, I agree.
It's dangerous yes, but the fact if you have initiated a drift and controlled it, and recovered, you have clearly been able to control the situation.. Otherwise you would have crashed.
I saw a guy in an M5 do a drift around a roundabout in Reading, it was dangerous and stupid but was it bad driving, no. It was a fantastic piece of car control.

[massifheed]

I didn't state any facts.

Apart from here...

there is no correlation between age and quality of driving let's remember

[motormad]

Apart from here...

That's not a fact though is it?
It's common sense.

There is no statistic for "quality of driving", whether you are a good driver or a bad one.
There is simply crash rates per age group.

Which is not, as I have said, any indication of quality of driving at all.

[dannyboy]

Oh no, I agree.
It's dangerous yes, but the fact if you have initiated a drift and controlled it, and recovered, you have clearly been able to control the situation.. Otherwise you would have crashed.
I saw a guy in an M5 do a drift around a roundabout in Reading, it was dangerous and stupid but was it bad driving, no. It was a fantastic piece of car control.

case closed.

[Turin Machine]

Oh no, I agree.
It's dangerous yes, but the fact if you have initiated a drift and controlled it, and recovered, you have clearly been able to control the situation.. Otherwise you would have crashed.
I saw a guy in an M5 do a drift around a roundabout in Reading, it was dangerous and stupid but was it bad driving, no. It was a fantastic piece of car control.

Until you get it wrong in front of your gurning mates, then someone dies.

[Andy Capp]

That's not a fact though is it?
It's common sense.

There is no statistic for "quality of driving", whether you are a good driver or a bad one.
There is simply crash rates per age group.

Which is not, as I have said, any indication of quality of driving at all.

If true, you are not in a position to posit your comment either. However, when people say young drivers, they normally mean young and inexperienced. No one fact will determine quality on it's own, but young male adults tend to be less risk averse and are more likely to 'show-off'. Two factors that will increase the risk of being involved in an accident. Of course, other factors in other age groups can have a detrimental affect, BUT insurance companies charge in accordance to a risk assessment, and young drivers are a higher risk.

As for your idea about controlling skids, I suspect it is more about luck than judgement. People tend not to want to crash their car and usually one's corrective actions are more likely to be an act of instinctive desperation.

[motormad]

Andy, any time I make a point you just brush it off... EG the ability to control a sliding car, it's not instinct, it's a skill that takes practise.
As I said, none of that what you have mentioned is relating to my point which is that there is no way to judge quality of driving based on age. Risk of crashing, yes, but driving ABILITY, no.

Until you get it wrong in front of your gurning mates, then someone dies.

Which does happen unfortunately.

[motormad]

Double post, oopsie.

[x2lls]

Oh no, I agree.
It's dangerous yes, but the fact if you have initiated a drift and controlled it, and recovered, you have clearly been able to control the situation.. Otherwise you would have crashed.
I saw a guy in an M5 do a drift around a roundabout in Reading, it was dangerous and stupid but was it bad driving, no. It was a fantastic piece of car control.

Are you serious?

Jeeeeeez, I doubt he was older than 12

[x2lls]

Andy, any time I make a point you just brush it off... 1 * EG the ability to control a sliding car, it's not instinct, it's a skill that takes practise.As I said, none of that what you have mentioned is relating to my point which is that there is no way to judge quality of driving based on age. Risk of crashing, yes, but driving ABILITY, no.



2 * Which does happen unfortunately.

1 * If he was that clever he would know the basics, don't do stupid and dumb things on public roads!!!!!!!!

2 * Andy rests his case


You can try a guess at which one is dumb or stupid!

[Andy Capp]

Andy, any time I make a point you just brush it off...

Often that is because you 'shoot from the hip'.

EG the ability to control a sliding car, it's not instinct, it's a skill that takes practise.

Unless one drives around skidding everywhere (dangerous), few can afford the time and money to train for it. Cheap, better, and safer, is just to bloody slow down and drive to the conditions.

As I said, none of that what you have mentioned is relating to my point which is that there is no way to judge quality of driving based on age. Risk of crashing, yes, but driving ABILITY, no.

You didn't read properly what I said. I said young drivers is usually short for 'young and inexperienced'. Most people have more accidents when they are young. And in most cases I suspect most were avoidable. Driving ability is meaningless if you are a risk taker and are showing off. At the end of the day most people are average drivers, and as you get older, and dare I say more mature, you are likely to take more care driving. I'm not say anecdotally, but statistically.

[motormad]

Often that is because you 'shoot from the hip'.

I have steady aim pro. And luckily as I also have rapid fire, none of my bullets have the chance to oxidise..................................................

Unless one drives around skidding everywhere (dangerous), few can afford the time and money to train for it. Cheap, better, and safer, is just to bloody slow down and drive to the conditions.

It's not really that hard to do...depends on skill level.

You didn't read properly what I said. I said young drivers is usually short for 'young and inexperienced'. Most people have more accidents when they are young. And in most cases I suspect most were avoidable. Driving ability is meaningless if you are a risk taker and are showing off. At the end of the day most people are average drivers, and as you get older, and dare I say more mature, you are likely to take more care driving. I'm not say anecdotally, but statistically.

And some of what you have said is fair which is not what we're actually discussing, which is my point - At first you say that young drivers are bad.
And now it's that young drivers are inexperienced.
And now young drivers are all risk takers and people who are showing off.

So in the course of 24 hours you've seemingly changed your standpoint thrice?
An FYI, the M5 guy was about 40 as I chatted to him when he pulled into the meet that was going on at the Reading Retail Park. He competes in the D1GP in a Nissan 200sx in his spare time.
Notice I'm not saying that it was "safe" but he was in control and knew what he was doing.
And there-in lies the difference.

So here is what it boils down to in my opinion (which is of course completely correct....)

Age has no reflection of the "quality" of your driving.
Young drivers and the elderly are statistically more likely to crash than those between the ages of 25 and 60.
Having an accident does not make you a bad driver
Not having an accident does not make you a good driver.
Sliding your car is not a dangerous action in itself.
Not all young drivers who crash do so showing off infront of their mates.

[Andy Capp]

It's not really that hard to do...depends on skill level.

You are stating the bleedin' obvious here, although earlier you said it took skill and practice.

And some of what you have said is fair which is not what we're actually discussing, which is my point - At first you say that young drivers are bad.

Would you show me where I said that?

And now it's that young drivers are inexperienced.

Which I think is obvious. You cannot hone your skills without practice (experience), can you?

And now young drivers are all risk takers and people who are showing off.

Again, I ask, where did I say 'all drivers' are risk-taking show-offs

So in the course of 24 hours you've seemingly changed your standpoint thrice?

After you remove your inaccurate reporting of what I have said, I see little contradiction to be honest. I started by saying young drivers are more likely to have an accident, I then went on to suggest reasons why.

An FYI, the M5 guy was about 40 as I chatted to him when he pulled into the meet that was going on at the Reading Retail Park. He competes in the D1GP in a Nissan 200sx in his spare time.
Notice I'm not saying that it was "safe" but he was in control and knew what he was doing.

Everyone is in control until something goes wrong; a bit of diesel, a blow-out. The public highway is not a place to demonstrate such skill. While he might know how to 'drift', he seems to lack the sense to avoid such activity in public.

Age has no reflection of the "quality" of your driving.

Of course it has an effect, especially at the extremities of age, when physical condition and mental acumen alter.

Having an accident does not make you a bad driver
Not having an accident does not make you a good driver.
Sliding your car is not a dangerous action in itself.
Not all young drivers who crash do so showing off infront of their mates.

In isolation that might be true, but some of us were considering a group of people.

[motormad]

You are stating the bleedin' obvious here, although earlier you said it took skill and practice.

Some people are naturally more able.
It takes a level of skill and practise but that skill does not need to come at great cost. There are plenty of flat open spaces which are abandoned to practise on. Alternatively the driveway of someone you don't like very much

Would you show me where I said that?

Why do I need to go back and show you things you've written?

Which I think is obvious. You cannot hone your skills without practice (experience), can you?

Again, not true. Regarding young drivers, some are just "able" to drive. I know a guy who had no driving lessons and passed first time. I had 3 but then I had been riding bikes for 2 years.
There is a level of "natural" ability drummed into everyone for certain things.. some people just have a "knack" for driving, those who can drive "in their sleep" rather than those who have to "actively concentrate" rather than be passively concentrating, if that makes sense. Some of us don't need to put a lot of brainpower into driving because it's second nature. But for example asking me to do anything vaugely electrical will likely result in a fire.

My point is that a lot of young drivers get tarnished with the same brush, which is that we are all idiots and do handbrake turns in McDonalds car parks in our Citroen Saxo's but it's so out of touch with reality, while those of a more ripe age sit there passing judgement.
This kid in the OP is dead and had it been a middle aged man, it would have been a sea of "oh no, oh dear, what a shame", but it's some teenager, oh, must have been doing 150 miles an hour and driving like a complete idiot, how dare he...
I've also heard (not read, mind) reports that the kid was actually killed by a police car running him over after being thrown from the vehicle.

My bed is calling me.

[dannyboy]

crickey - ain't you two got nuthin' better to do on Valentines, or should you two just get a room.........

[Andy Capp]

crickey - ain't you two got nuthin' better to do on Valentines, or should you two just get a room.........

Oh dear ... here comes the law!

[Andy Capp]

Why do I need to go back and show you things you've written?

You don't need to. Indeed, it would be pointless as in this case as what you previously posted said was not true.

Again, not true. Regarding young drivers...blah, blah

'Again' not true? Moi?

[Amelie]

had it been a middle aged man, it would have been a sea of "oh no, oh dear, what a shame",

No it wouldn't. It would still be along the lines of "Shame, but one less twit on the road"

[motormad]

Well, I agree. But that's what I would have said. However what some of the posters here would have said would have been along the lines of what I mentioned..

Oh dear ... here comes the law!

indeed.