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> Facebook. We really should link this forum to it, like it or not., This forum is now a digital dinasaur.
Andy1
post Aug 16 2017, 08:39 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 15 2017, 06:33 PM) *
...and this! tongue.gif


and this, last word
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Andy Capp
post Aug 16 2017, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (Andy1 @ Aug 16 2017, 09:39 AM) *
and this, last word

Addictive, isn't it? wink.gif
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SirWilliam
post Aug 17 2017, 07:37 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 16 2017, 10:02 PM) *
Addictive, isn't it? wink.gif


Or sad rolleyes.gif


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SirWilliam
post Aug 17 2017, 07:55 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 13 2017, 09:52 AM) *
The thing is, one runs out of things to moan about.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40676384

If this doesn't justify a rant I don't know what does .


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Biker1
post Aug 17 2017, 09:06 AM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Aug 17 2017, 08:55 AM) *
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40676384

If this doesn't justify a rant I don't know what does .

I have spent most of my life ranting about people who gain fun and pleasure fron the suffering and killing of animals.
I give up!
Time for others to take over. sad.gif
(Or you can help by supporting LACS or PETA.)
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SirWilliam
post Aug 17 2017, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Aug 17 2017, 10:06 AM) *
I have spent most of my life ranting about people who gain fun and pleasure fron the suffering and killing of animals.
I give up!
Time for others to take over. sad.gif
(Or you can help by supporting LACS or PETA.)


Total agreement . My problem with the charity approach is that though the reasoning is sound , the sad reality is that only a few animals actually benefit .
Taking nothing away from the frontline workers but it is rather Cnut-esque in it's achievement . I guess it is in the DNA of Homo Sapien to pursue everything that runs from him and to run from anything that chases .


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Andy Capp
post Aug 17 2017, 07:27 PM
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That's nature, that is.
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On the edge
post Aug 18 2017, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 17 2017, 08:27 PM) *
Thats nature, that is.


....and having rules to try and control human nature is civilisation!


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Biker1
post Aug 19 2017, 07:24 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 18 2017, 10:30 AM) *
....and having rules to try and control human nature is civilisation!

Correct OTE.
Very succinctly put! wink.gif
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Andy Capp
post Aug 22 2017, 06:19 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 18 2017, 10:30 AM) *
....and having rules to try and control human nature is civilisation!

Correct, but even the civilised only eat that which runs away.
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On the edge
post Aug 22 2017, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 22 2017, 07:19 AM) *
Correct, but even the civilised only eat that which runs away.


Quite right, but it still doesn't justify cruelty to other species anymore than claiming it's OK to belt your partner because the bloke next door does.


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SirWilliam
post Aug 22 2017, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 22 2017, 05:18 PM) *
Quite right, but it still doesn't justify cruelty to other species anymore than claiming it's OK to belt your partner because the bloke next door does.


Is cruelty an inherent trait that is suppressed by the civilising process or something that occurs independently because of a persons upbringing ? Most of the successful persons in history didn't achieve status by being nice and there is little or no evidence to suggest that an altruistic approach is beneficial over a selfish one .
Yet we all like to think that our view of the world is the right one and very few will admit to being cruel even though the evidence may prove otherwise .


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Andy Capp
post Aug 22 2017, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 22 2017, 05:18 PM) *
Quite right, but it still doesn't justify cruelty to other species anymore than claiming it's OK to belt your partner because the bloke next door does.

Again, i agree, but what is not cruel about killing something that doesnt want to die? Which activity do you think brings the greatest amount of cruelty: recreational hunting or or industrial farming?
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On the edge
post Aug 22 2017, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Aug 22 2017, 07:22 PM) *
Is cruelty an inherent trait that is suppressed by the civilising process or something that occurs independently because of a persons upbringing ? Most of the successful persons in history didn't achieve status by being nice and there is little or no evidence to suggest that an altruistic approach is beneficial over a selfish one .
Yet we all like to think that our view of the world is the right one and very few will admit to being cruel even though the evidence may prove otherwise .


Sure, but that doesn't make it right. I'd argue that the real test is the personal understanding. Did the perpetrator understand the effect of their decision in pain or pleasure? For instance, the knowledge that he could have saved many lives from being lost prior to the bombing of Coventry caused Churchill great pain, though his decision was doubtless right. The real issue with hunting isn't so much that it happens, more that the hunters clearly do it for and gain great pleasure from it. At best, it simply shows a lack of respect. Put it this way, I'm not sure I'd want my teeth filled by a dentist who gets his kicks killing big animals; you'd never be sure the pain he inflicted on you was deliberate or simply dentistry!


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On the edge
post Aug 22 2017, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 22 2017, 08:24 PM) *
Again, i agree, but what is not cruel about killing something that doesnt want to die? Which activity do you think brings the greatest amount of cruelty: recreational hunting or or industrial farming?


I'd argue recreational hunting, simply because it is deliberate and otherwise unjustified cruelty. Yes, hunting to kill is often seen as necessary to eliminate what is considered vermin, but that can be, and is otherwise done ad humanly as possible.


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Andy Capp
post Aug 23 2017, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 22 2017, 09:33 PM) *
I'd argue recreational hunting, simply because it is deliberate and otherwise unjustified cruelty. Yes, hunting to kill is often seen as necessary to eliminate what is considered vermin, but that can be, and is otherwise done ad humanly as possible.

What about industrial farming? What about lamb meat, or £3 chicken, or cold milk for your coffee. All based around exploiting our enjoyment of eating animal produce. And woe betide the butcher who may enjoy his job.

Yes I think recreational hunting is cruel, but I believe our love of eating meat and dairy is too. Something we do on such a scale, it is believed to contribute to global environmental damage.

I don't believe It is humane to kill a healthy creature that doesn't want to die. I certainly wouldn't call it civilised.
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On the edge
post Aug 23 2017, 06:03 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 23 2017, 01:28 AM) *
What about industrial farming? What about lamb meat, or £3 chicken, or cold milk for your coffee. All based around exploiting our enjoyment of eating animal produce. And woe betide the butcher who may enjoy his job.

Yes I think recreational hunting is cruel, but I believe our love of eating meat and dairy is too. Something we do on such a scale, it is believed to contribute to global environmental damage.

I don't believe It is humane to kill a healthy creature that doesn't want to die. I certainly wouldn't call it civilised.


I'm sorry but I make a distinction between a soldier who kills in the line of duty and a terrorist; it's essentially the same difference. Arguably comes down to self; is what is being done for self or for and on behalf of others. So, industrial farming, just so I can chisel more profit for me isn't acceptable.


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Andy Capp
post Aug 23 2017, 07:23 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 23 2017, 07:03 AM) *
I'm sorry but I make a distinction between a soldier who kills in the line of duty and a terrorist; it's essentially the same difference. Arguably comes down to self; is what is being done for self or for and on behalf of others. So, industrial farming, just so I can chisel more profit for me isn't acceptable.

Bomber Command operated 'in the line if duty'.
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SirWilliam
post Aug 23 2017, 08:13 AM
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Nothing like going off topic wink.gif
Very few will admit to the enjoyment of inflicting pain or killing a living creature but but many do and justify their actions accordingly .
Everything that is born will eventually die , the question is, should this be a natural progression or do we have the right to end it early for the benefit of many ?
The soldier kills an enemy before the enemy kills him and his family . The farmer breeds and subsequently kills a cow to feed his family as hunger will not wait till the animal dies of old age and if that was not the case it wouldn't have been bred in the first place .

Simplistic ? Agreed , but it is a cycle that has been in existence since life began . Those of us who have a moral outrage against such persons as a lion killing dentist or halal slaughtermen ,though in a majority , are forced to accept the status quo .

When most of the world's wildlife has been wiped out and we reflect on what we have done it will be to late ,but those who contributed most to the demise will still have the same mentality .


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Andy Capp
post Aug 23 2017, 11:46 AM
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Is cruelty real, or just a human construct? Should we worry about being cruel? What difference does it make? Perhaps we are all just bags of transitional energy with a sense of our own over importance?
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