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> 29th March 2019, Independence Day
On the edge
post Jun 27 2018, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 27 2018, 12:11 PM) *
Funny really. When the inevitable happens and we either obey the rules of the club or leave empty handed you and others will blame the negotiating rather than the reality that you can’t be in a club without following the club rules. They aren’t going to give us access unless we accept free movement and the other things. TM is in an impossible situation.


No, it's not worth being in a club where the members don't play by the rules, for me, that's the reason we are coming out. The EU members simply don't.

Like Sir Austin Chamberlain, we've always played the game and we've always lost.

Just one small proof - London Electricity was purchased by the French nationalised electricity supplier (EdF) although there were several other private bids. Could a private UK utility take over EdF, er no, of course not. What did the EU do aboutthe that...........

Just like the imperialisim it sought to emulate, the EU has had its day.


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newres
post Jun 27 2018, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jun 27 2018, 01:24 PM) *
No, it's not worth being in a club where the members don't play by the rules, for me, that's the reason we are coming out. The EU members simply don't.

Like Sir Austin Chamberlain, we've always played the game and we've always lost.

Just one small proof - London Electricity was purchased by the French nationalised electricity supplier (EdF) although there were several other private bids. Could a private UK utility take over EdF, er no, of course not. What did the EU do aboutthe that...........

Just like the imperialisim it sought to emulate, the EU has had its day.

If you can tell me where EU rules were breached by the French I'll join you in condemning it. I don't have that kind of knowledge. My own experience is that often it's our implementation of the EU rules that handicaps us. Normally our interpretation is as free market as possible because that's our general ethos (well our government's). The French tend to protect their economy and farmers and even small traders. As long as it's withing the rules it's all cool in the kaftan.
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On the edge
post Jun 27 2018, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 27 2018, 03:43 PM) *
If you can tell me where EU rules were breached by the French I'll join you in condemning it. I don't have that kind of knowledge. My own experience is that often it's our implementation of the EU rules that handicaps us. Normally our interpretation is as free market as possible because that's our general ethos (well our government's). The French tend to protect their economy and farmers and even small traders. As long as it's withing the rules it's all cool in the kaftan.


Yes, that's exactly right. The French and ironically the Germans are well versed in interpreting the prolix and onerous rules to protect their nation state interests, often to the detriment of free market. In the case I mentioned, the 'rules' comprise several fine print volumes.

I'd agree the difficulty is our Civil Service who interpret 'to the letter', in other words following English common law principles which is based on Mosaic law. The EU nation state legal systems tend to be based on Roman law, which is far more codified and open to interpretation. So, it's a bit like two teams trying to play hockey, with one team playing by the rules of lawn tennis on the basis that both games use bats and balls.

We've had nigh on 40 years to get the rules changed and make things better, but we haven't managed to do that. Again, Germany, France, Italy still have mass motor manufacturers whereas we don't.

In business terms at least, we have more of a chance of success with the emerging major economies in Asia / China / Inda on our own than with the EU, which is now too large to be as agile as new markets need.

I also agree that the decade plus it will take us to get up to speed will be economically difficult and possibly quite painful, but the end result will be a brighter long term future. First world dominance is sinking - we are safer in our own uncomfortable lifeboat.


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newres
post Jun 27 2018, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jun 27 2018, 06:37 PM) *
Yes, that's exactly right. The French and ironically the Germans are well versed in interpreting the prolix and onerous rules to protect their nation state interests, often to the detriment of free market. In the case I mentioned, the 'rules' comprise several fine print volumes.

I'd agree the difficulty is our Civil Service who interpret 'to the letter', in other words following English common law principles which is based on Mosaic law. The EU nation state legal systems tend to be based on Roman law, which is far more codified and open to interpretation. So, it's a bit like two teams trying to play hockey, with one team playing by the rules of lawn tennis on the basis that both games use bats and balls.

We've had nigh on 40 years to get the rules changed and make things better, but we haven't managed to do that. Again, Germany, France, Italy still have mass motor manufacturers whereas we don't.

In business terms at least, we have more of a chance of success with the emerging major economies in Asia / China / Inda on our own than with the EU, which is now too large to be as agile as new markets need.


I also agree that the decade plus it will take us to get up to speed will be economically difficult and possibly quite painful, but the end result will be a brighter long term future. First world dominance is sinking - we are safer in our own uncomfortable lifeboat.

The bit in red doesn't make sense. We trade independently of the EU. The EU negotiates tariffs and so on, but we trade at company level not national or continent level. I think broad claims like that are just rhetoric.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jun 27 2018, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 27 2018, 07:16 PM) *
The bit in red doesn't make sense. We trade independently of the EU. The EU negotiates tariffs and so on, but we trade at company level not national or continent level. I think broad claims like that are just rhetoric.


I don't. People voted in general on a sovereignty and anti immigration ticket. You may not like the outcome but if they reneged on the referendum you wouldn't have 100000 Marching in London, you'd have millions. The geney is out of the bottle and no matter how much you want to put the stopper back in, it ain't gonna happen. So either accept it and make the best of what you perceive to be a bad situation or think seriously about relocating to the EU. For your own sanity. You can help Jean Claude with his bar bill.
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Andy Capp
post Jun 27 2018, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 27 2018, 03:43 PM) *
If you can tell me where EU rules were breached by the French I'll join you in condemning it. I don't have that kind of knowledge. My own experience is that often it's our implementation of the EU rules that handicaps us. Normally our interpretation is as free market as possible because that's our general ethos (well our government's). The French tend to protect their economy and farmers and even small traders. As long as it's withing the rules it's all cool in the kaftan.

Germany now 'biggest breaker of EU rules', according to official figures
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newres
post Jun 28 2018, 05:20 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 27 2018, 07:32 PM) *
I don't. People voted in general on a sovereignty and anti immigration ticket. You may not like the outcome but if they reneged on the referendum you wouldn't have 100000 Marching in London, you'd have millions. The geney is out of the bottle and no matter how much you want to put the stopper back in, it ain't gonna happen. So either accept it and make the best of what you perceive to be a bad situation or think seriously about relocating to the EU. For your own sanity. You can help Jean Claude with his bar bill.

We are leaving the EU, but what was not in the referendum was the detail. The government isn't going to let the country crash. The outcome will be compromise. Not between the EU and UK, but between factions of the Tory party. The so called red lines will have to move.

People voted on sovereignty only. There was no vote on immigration.
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newres
post Jun 28 2018, 05:53 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 27 2018, 08:46 PM) *

As long as the rules are enforced when seen to be broken. That's why the ECJ exists.
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On the edge
post Jun 28 2018, 06:00 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 27 2018, 07:16 PM) *
The bit in red doesn't make sense. We trade independently of the EU. The EU negotiates tariffs and so on, but we trade at company level not national or continent level. I think broad claims like that are just rhetoric.


Yes we do trade at company level, but for many years subject to government rules. For instance, in some cases, such as arms, our government even dictates to whom we can sell to. The reality of the EU is that at best it simply adds an extra layer of rules which necessarily adds cost and complexity. For some continental nations, trading is easier because they have adopted a common currency but as we have seen, that brings many other problems. Similarly, cross boarder customs checks can be reduced, but we shouldn't run away with the idea that they don't exist. Back in the early 70's when we joined, our international trading customs and currency arrangements all worked well. Our biggest issue back then was internal - poor productivity; arguably the symptom of bad management.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jun 28 2018, 06:04 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 28 2018, 06:53 AM) *
As long as the rules are enforced when seen to be broken. That's why the ECJ exists.

The ECJ???

I thought it existed to give married men in dresses a pension at 60.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44612117

Get your pension 5 years early. Start wearing a dress at 59. Quite appealing in this weather!!!😂
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newres
post Jun 28 2018, 06:08 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 28 2018, 07:04 AM) *
The ECJ???

I thought it existed to give married men in dresses a pension at 60.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44612117

Get your pension 5 years early. Start wearing a dress at 59. Quite appealing in this weather!!!😂

Does your list of phobias know no limits?
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jun 28 2018, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 28 2018, 07:08 AM) *
Does your list of phobias know no limits?

😂
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On the edge
post Jun 28 2018, 06:53 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 27 2018, 08:46 PM) *


That's interesting, I've often thought that Germany is exceptionally good at avoiding. They generally do it like the Starbucks / Amazon tax avoidance, all strictly legal, but not right. The French are more open, just say no!

Frankly, it's hardly surprising that the EU regulations are so easy to avoid. Anyone who has been involved in trying to deliver a major project to multiple customers will fully understand the difficulties of working with say five different 'owners' let alone twenty plus, all with different languages and cultures.


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Biker1
post Jun 28 2018, 07:10 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 28 2018, 07:08 AM) *
Does your list of phobias know no limits?

Phobia
"A phobia is an overwhelming and debilitating fear of an object, place, situation, feeling or animal."
Another English word that is regularly misused.
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newres
post Jun 28 2018, 12:27 PM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jun 28 2018, 08:10 AM) *
Phobia
"A phobia is an overwhelming and debilitating fear of an object, place, situation, feeling or animal."
Another English word that is regularly misused.

Sorry, I didn't invent the terms Islamophobia, transphobia, homophobia, xenophobia and so on... laugh.gif
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dannyboy
post Jun 28 2018, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 27 2018, 07:32 PM) *
People voted in general on a sovereignty and anti immigration ticket.



UK sovereignty was never under threat from the EU & the UK will, post Brexit, still need workers from overseas who will come here & work. Trebles all round.
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On the edge
post Jun 28 2018, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (dannyboy @ Jun 28 2018, 05:52 PM) *
UK sovereignty was never under threat from the EU & the UK will, post Brexit, still need workers from overseas who will come here & work. Trebles all round.


Depends what you define as Sovereignty. We have a Sovereign and look at the huge powers she has laugh.gif

The EU made no bones about it, 'ever closer union' was and still is the ultimate aim. When that happens doubtless we'll have a ceremonial Westminister with as much power as the County of Berkshire!

We've always had workers from overseas, even before we joined the EU. Don't think very many thought we'd not need overseasj workers when we come out. That flys in the face of past history. For instance, an MP called Powell I think, arranged for large numbers to come to help run our Health service back in the 60s.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jun 28 2018, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 28 2018, 01:27 PM) *
Sorry, I didn't invent the terms Islamophobia, transphobia, homophobia, xenophobia and so on... laugh.gif

I have newresophobia

The fear of someone who wants to live in a basket case of a country.
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newres
post Jun 28 2018, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jun 28 2018, 08:08 PM) *
I have newresophobia

The fear of someone who wants to live in a basket case of a country.

Oh the irony.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jun 28 2018, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jun 28 2018, 10:01 PM) *
Oh the irony.

Opinions fella. We all have them. We may not see eye to eye but I respect your will to write the gibberish you spout.👍
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