Newbury's CCTV Options

[JeffG]

From this article:

Mrs Powell added that the project will be monitored to ensure value for money and all the camera locations would be tracked using a Global Information Service mapping system.

I'm not sure what the lady means. Does she mean GPS? If so, are the cameras going to be tracked in case they go walkabout under their own steam?

[NWNREADER]

From this article:

I'm not sure what the lady means. Does she mean GPS? If so, are the cameras going to be tracked in case they go walkabout under their own steam?

Email her and ask her. It could be the cameras will be linked so the 'next' one on the route being monitored prepares to take over when the current one loses contact

[NWNREADER]

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[blackdog]

From this article:

I'm not sure what the lady means. Does she mean GPS? If so, are the cameras going to be tracked in case they go walkabout under their own steam?

GIS is a computer based mapping system supplied by the Ordnance Survey - councils pay a load of dosh and can then access a wonderful array of maps (massively detailed modern maps and historic maps as well). The online mapping from WBC's website is based on it (but is a only a very limited version of the real thing). Users can add 'layers' of information to the maps - no doubt the location of CCTV cameras will be on there. Can't see how it enables them to track anything else though - still I suppose the operators in Windor will at least know the name of the street they are monitoring.

GIS = geographical information system, or geospatial information system

[Iommi]

You're seriously advocating the Town Council paying someone no doubt a five figure sum per year to someone to refute rumours on chat boards all day? What about Thatcham Town Council, Hungerford, Tilehurst? How much would that all cost? Absolutely barmy at any time and even more absurd given the current climate.

If you go back to my post, you'll see that I have corrected my typos. Notwithstanding I've added to my point of view.

[JeffG]

GIS = geographical information system, or geospatial information system

Thanks. That is more helpful (and accurate). Just try Googling "Global Information Service"!

[Bofem]

Come on people. CCTV is RUBBISH and doesn't work.

West Berks spends THREE times more on CCTV as Preston Lancs!

Instead of transferring it to Windsor, we should have scrapped the lot and invested in proven crime reduction measures. But of course that would have been economically sensible, culturally popular, but politically dangerous.

A big fat waste of money

[blackdog]

Come on people. CCTV is RUBBISH and doesn't work.

West Berks spends THREE times more on CCTV as Preston Lancs!

Instead of transferring it to Windsor, we should have scrapped the lot and invested in proven crime reduction measures. But of course that would have been economically sensible, culturally popular, but politically dangerous.

A big fat waste of money

Item on the news the other night - the Swiss ski resort of Verbier is currently installing lots of CCTV following a 60% reduction in crime following the introduction of CCTV in two similar resorts - suggesting that it does work.

A quick question - what are the crime rates in Newbury and Preston?

[NWNREADER]

Come on people. CCTV is RUBBISH and doesn't work.

West Berks spends THREE times more on CCTV as Preston Lancs!

Instead of transferring it to Windsor, we should have scrapped the lot and invested in proven crime reduction measures. But of course that would have been economically sensible, culturally popular, but politically dangerous.

A big fat waste of money

First look at the source - an anti-CCTV organisation producing it's own report, based on it's own questions, is fairly certain to come up with evidence that supports its' core stance.
Just with a quick look I can see numerous cracks in the evidence, but there we go.....

I happen to agree there is too much reliance on CCTV, but it is a valid tool. No single solution is a panacea, which is something politicians promoting the latest 'good thing' would do well to remember.

As for the centralisation in Windsor, time will tell. It took time and training for the local staff to make maximum benefit of the system. Some of the cameras were badly sited originally, and subsequent development has altered the pattern of need, so it could be 'losing' some cameras will not be the disaster we seem to fear.

[On the edge]

......so it could be 'losing' some cameras will not be the disaster we seem to fear.

I agree - but we could have looked further out. India, or South Africa would have been a much cheaper option and just as effective. The 'disaster we seem to fear' is not all it seems!

[Bofem]

CCTV can have a limited impact (Jamie Bulger case springs to mind). But these are outweighed by disadvantages (we could have paid for 25 extra police officers in W Berks).

Chatting with an ex-employee of the Newbury spycams, it's clear that locally they've got nearly everything to make sure it doesn't work in the following ares:

1. Policy - failure to use modern kit keeps prosecutions and evidence down to a bare minimum
2. Process - dozens of Newbury cameras switched off so reducing useful ID.
3. Operations - CCTV needs constant oxygen of publicity to work as a deterrent.

I don't care if its run from Windsor or Wales....as it's run now it's a big fat waste of money.

[On the edge]

CCTV can have a limited impact (Jamie Bulger case springs to mind). But these are outweighed by disadvantages (we could have paid for 25 extra police officers in W Berks).

Chatting with an ex-employee of the Newbury spycams, it's clear that locally they've got nearly everything to make sure it doesn't work in the following ares:

1. Policy - failure to use modern kit keeps prosecutions and evidence down to a bare minimum
2. Process - dozens of Newbury cameras switched off so reducing useful ID.
3. Operations - CCTV needs constant oxygen of publicity to work as a deterrent.

I don't care if its run from Windsor or Wales....as it's run now it's a big fat waste of money.

Regrettably CCTV has now become a public icon in crime reduction. No one ever gives a thought to ongoing maintenance and operational costs - which are massive. Rather like the 'dog mess' issue - we had a Councillor offer to pay for a couple of bins himself along the tow path. Notice supply the bins, not cover the cost of emptying them. What Councillor would be brave or honest enough to admit they are exactly as you say; all they do is to marginally reduce the fear of crime. So WBC are right - just spend sufficient to keep the Councillors on board and no more.

[Iommi]

If there is such contention with regards the cost effectiveness of CCTV, perhaps there should be a full and open debate about it. Cost analysis, etc. It seems, however, WBC and others would rather keep this secret.

[On the edge]

If there is such contention with regards the cost effectiveness of CCTV, perhaps there should be a full and open debate about it. Cost analysis, etc. It seems, however, WBC and others would rather keep this secret.

That would seem reasonable. Can't for the life of me work out why they'd want to hide the costs or benefits - a public debate against the real facts might well solve thier problem!

[Iommi]

That would seem reasonable. Can't for the life of me work out why they'd want to hide the costs or benefits - a public debate against the real facts might well solve thier problem!

Err... would you translate that for someone basic like me?

[On the edge]

Err... would you translate that for someone basic like me?

Simply agreeing with you. Costs are hidden; but I can't understand why they'd want to hide them. Most people I've ever spoken to about CCTV seem to think they are a good thing. I've been at public meetings where the public have been demanding 'cameras' at all possible locations. However, no one ever explains the whole cost - particularly the cost of monitoring. So WBC get castigated for not providing what the public see as a major weapon in crime detection. However, looking at the evidence would probably suggest otherwise. So they could save a lot of dispute if they published the numbers.

Thats all!

[Iommi]

Right, gotcha. Yes, if they are worth it, we need to know. Add to this, it seems the Police have been 'muted' on the issue.

[NWNREADER]

Too much politics is about grand inputs, not outcomes. 'Maintenance' is not a vote winner, but grand schemes are. Grants are available for Capital schemes, but not revenue (maintenance). Revenue budgets are the first to be cut, so road repairs, building upkeep, equipment servicing falls off until another grand scheme is fanfared to put right the resulting broken systems. Politicians love to announce building a new office block for £ms rather than mention £ks spent on paint etc.
The CCTV system will be the same. LA budgeting does not reflect the cost of maintenance as that is lost in the black hole. Had the West Berks system been technically upgraded over time then some of the changes now would not have been required (as I fear they are). A new scheme, linking in with other LAs is more expensive than maintaining the old one, but in LA budget terms it is 'cheaper' and 'better value'.

[Iommi]

A new scheme, linking in with other LAs is more expensive than maintaining the old one, but in LA budget terms it is 'cheaper' and 'better value'.

It's the 'better value' that I'd like to understand: What are the KPIs? Also, the idea I would imagine, is that the increased cost of CCTV maintenance might be offset by a possible smaller cost of a reduced police presence in town.

[NWNREADER]

My overly cynical view is that the 'value' test the man on the street would apply is not used in government budgeting.
Imagine buying a house - a major investment - but not spending enough on looking after it. Is the family impressed by spending another wedge of cash in 'x' years time to buy one to replace the delapidated shack the house had become? The value test might say new was better than repair as it was (then) the cheaper option. Especially if you get a 'deal' on the new purchase that would not apply to the repair option.

I seem to remember hearing the highway maintenance budget was not increasing in line with the route mileage (old money), so even before cuts/inflation/stand-stills, the money has to stretch further - and 106 money cannot be used for maintenance....

KPIs are usually designed to be achieved, so are rarely that useful.