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> General Election 2017, What a massive lead in the polls brings!
On the edge
post May 18 2017, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 18 2017, 01:43 AM) *
Cannabis is already effectively legal.


Yes, I can see that to some extent. Similarly, shoplifing is also effectively legal.


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Simon Kirby
post May 18 2017, 06:32 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 17 2017, 11:27 PM) *
Blair - "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"
Corbyn - "Tough on wealth, tough on the causes of wealth"

Yes, catchy slogan, but you're not addressing the detail of a single Labour policy, nor are you promoting any alternative, party or policy.


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Simon Kirby
post May 18 2017, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 18 2017, 01:43 AM) *
Cannabis is already effectively legal.

The Lib Dem proposal has attracted some ridicule but personally I'm in favour of decriminalising the use and supply of pot and I'd like to see a debate on the decriminalisation of all illegal drugs. I understand that drug can be problematic but so too is the criminalisation, quite possibly more so. Supporting users to give up drugs could be a more effective way of dealing with the negative consequences of drug use with none of the problems of criminality, and being a bit more relaxed about the use of drugs that aren't especially harmful would probably help too with more support and education to allow people to make their own choices.


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Andy Capp
post May 18 2017, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 06:30 AM) *
Yes, I can see that to some extent. Similarly, shoplifing is also effectively legal.

I seem to remember reading ~85% of robberies are sponsored by the 'need' to fund illegal drugs use. It seems also that drug use is as 'popular' as ever. It makes sense therefore to approach the issue from a different angle, perhaps then we might also see a reduction in shoplifting.
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je suis Charlie
post May 18 2017, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ May 18 2017, 07:32 AM) *
Yes, catchy slogan, but you're not addressing the detail of a single Labour policy, nor are you promoting any alternative, party or policy.

It is catchy isn't it? I wonder why it's not used more? Maybe I could copywriter it and make some money? It does after all reflect labours desire to reduce the population to the lowest possible denominater. Unless your a union of course.


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On the edge
post May 18 2017, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 18 2017, 09:20 AM) *
I seem to remember reading ~85% of robberies are sponsored by the 'need' to fund illegal drugs use. It seems also that drug use is as 'popular' as ever. It makes sense therefore to approach the issue from a different angle, perhaps then we might also see a reduction in shoplifting.


Why don't they try out the theory on other intractable crimes first, then we'll see if this approach really works. For instance a huge percentage of road accidents are caused by 'the need to speed', in spite of cameras and constant tough enforcement, speeding is as 'popular' as ever. So it must also make sense to approach that from Tim's different angle.

Sorry, its populist clap trap, aimed at the pseudo intelligentsia who thought 'restorative justice' would solve our anti social crime problem and that free school meals would suddenly lift our schools performance.

What saddens me is the odium heaped on Labour for its manifesto, which doesn't contain anything anywhere near as wacky or revolutionary. It even includes stuff the Daily Mail is fighting for; renationalisation of railways. Nonetheless the LibDem one does fit like a glove with the May one party vision. We are all Tories, dark and light and blue all in the same room and if you think you are a trendy you go and join our mates having a fag on the patio.

PS - Have just seen that our local LibDem hopeful is going on a march campaigning for better help for people suffering from mental illness. Latest findings are beginning to reveal long term use of cannabis substantially increases your chances of suffering mental illness. Not exactly joined up policy thinking, unless you have a Tory mindset - increase use means more tax, but don't worry 'we'll look after you'.


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je suis Charlie
post May 18 2017, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 10:38 AM) *
PS - Have just seen that our local LibDem hopeful is going on a march campaigning for better help for people suffering from mental illness. Latest findings are beginning to reveal long term use of cannabis substantially increases your chances of suffering mental illness. Not exactly joined up policy thinking, unless you have a Tory mindset - increase use means more tax, but don't worry 'we'll look after you'.

Goes part of the way to explaining why, after so many years of legalised cannabis use the Dutch are all as mad as hatters. Oh, wait! laugh.gif


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Andy Capp
post May 18 2017, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 10:38 AM) *
Why don't they try out the theory on other intractable crimes first

I believe the illegal drugs trade is 'intractable'.

QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 10:38 AM) *
, then we'll see if this approach really works. For instance a huge percentage of road accidents are caused by 'the need to speed', in spite of cameras and constant tough enforcement, speeding is as 'popular' as ever. So it must also make sense to approach that from Tim's different angle.

I think that is a specious argument. Speed management controls have made roads undeniably safer. Moreover, the speeders amongst us haven't developed a revenue stream that helps underpin a criminal underworld.

QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 10:38 AM) *
Sorry, its populist clap trap, aimed at the pseudo intelligentsia who thought 'restorative justice' would solve our anti social crime problem and that free school meals would suddenly lift our schools performance.

Those initiatives are a part of the evolution of human behaviour management. They were never meant to cure anything, that's your hyperbole. Those ideas were underpinned by research; whether they work or not remains to be seen, but it is better than just keep doing the same thing over where it has been proven not to improve matters.

QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 10:38 AM) *
What saddens me is the odium heaped on Labour for its manifesto, which doesn't contain anything anywhere near as wacky or revolutionary.

I think it does. Some of Corbyn's ideas are simply unworkable under the current zeitgeist.

QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 10:38 AM) *
PS - Have just seen that our local LibDem hopeful is going on a march campaigning for better help for people suffering from mental illness. Latest findings are beginning to reveal long term use of cannabis substantially increases your chances of suffering mental illness. Not exactly joined up policy thinking, unless you have a Tory mindset - increase use means more tax, but don't worry 'we'll look after you'.

The legalise drug idea isn't about curing anything, it is about a different way of managing a problem that is not going to go away any time soon. Perhaps it is the company I keep, but I don't know anyone that doesn't experiment with illegal drugs simply because they are illegal, but I do know people who don't speed because it is.
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newres
post May 18 2017, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 18 2017, 09:44 AM) *
It is catchy isn't it? I wonder why it's not used more? Maybe I could copywriter it and make some money? It does after all reflect labours desire to reduce the population to the lowest possible denominater. Unless your a union of course.

Just as long as you don't try to make money proof reading. biggrin.gif
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je suis Charlie
post May 18 2017, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ May 18 2017, 04:04 PM) *
Just as long as you don't try to make money proof reading. biggrin.gif

Could've bin worser, could av sed onion, cos they bofe stinks. smile.gif


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On the edge
post May 18 2017, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 18 2017, 03:26 PM) *
I believe the illegal drugs trade is 'intractable'.


I think that is a specious argument. Speed management controls have made roads undeniably safer. Moreover, the speeders amongst us haven't developed a revenue stream that helps underpin a criminal underworld.


Those initiatives are a part of the evolution of human behaviour management. They were never meant to cure anything, that's your hyperbole. Those ideas were underpinned by research; whether they work or not remains to be seen, but it is better than just keep doing the same thing over where it has been proven not to improve matters.


..........
I think it does. Some of Corbyn's ideas are simply unworkable under the current zeitgeist.


The legalise drug idea isn't about curing anything, it is about a different way of managing a problem that is not going to go away any time soon. Perhaps it is the company I keep, but I don't know anyone that doesn't experiment with illegal drugs simply because they are illegal, but I do know people who don't speed because it is.


Sorry, certainly haven't sold it to me, some of these ideas are just as unworkable as Labour's and to many quite repugnant. That's certainly the impression I get knocking on doors! Ironically, even the youth and student forums I've been to are very much less enthusiastic than most would imagine. Perhaps it's their way if rebelling.

it's telling that they haven't touched other controversial issues, which some think are of higher priority. Incorporating Sharia law, no fault divorce, legitimising polygamy etc. It's only things that can be taxed, cannibis sales, prostitution etc.

Once the moralising is over, we get to the heart of the matter. The unemployment benefits bill will go down and job seekers will have more opportunities, nice! So, to right wing Tories, a coalition is beginning to make a lot of sense.



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Andy Capp
post May 18 2017, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 05:29 PM) *
Sorry, certainly haven't sold it to me, some of these ideas are just as unworkable as Labour's and to many quite repugnant.

That's certainly the impression I get knocking on doors! Ironically, even the youth and student forums I've been to are very much less enthusiastic than most would imagine. Perhaps it's their way if rebelling.

I'm not sure anecdotes are measure of national mood on any particular subject, or even if it matters. We all know what a bunch of dumbarses the electorate can be.

QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 05:29 PM) *
it's telling that they haven't touched other controversial issues, which some think are of higher priority. Incorporating Sharia law, no fault divorce, legitimising polygamy etc. It's only things that can be taxed, cannibis sales, prostitution etc.

Aren't those things currently illegal; what are they meant to do: make them more illegal? What are labour doing about it?

QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 05:29 PM) *
Once the moralising is over, we get to the heart of the matter. The unemployment benefits bill will go down and job seekers will have more opportunities, nice! So, to right wing Tories, a coalition is beginning to make a lot of sense.

I don't see how the drug policy is a moral one; it looks more like a practical one to me.
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Andy Capp
post May 18 2017, 07:22 PM
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Incidentally, because I might see potential in an idea, it doesn't mean I am in complete agreement either. It is just I don't see the present arrangement as working, considering the crime it brings.
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je suis Charlie
post May 18 2017, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 05:29 PM) *
Once the moralising is over, we get to the heart of the matter. The unemployment benefits bill will go down and job seekers will have more opportunities, nice! So, to right wing Tories, a coalition of chaos is beginning to make a lot less sense.

Fixxored that one for you. cool.gif


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On the edge
post May 18 2017, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 18 2017, 07:21 PM) *
I'm not sure anecdotes are measure of national mood on any particular subject, or even if it matters. We all know what a bunch of dumbarses the electorate can be.

Sadly, as the LibDem manifesto demonstrates the dumbarse electorate get what they deserve, dumbarse parties.

Aren't those things currently illegal; what are they meant to do: make them more illegal? What are labour doing about it?

That's the point, cannibis and running brothels are illegal today. Why have these crimes and not other 'social crimes' been chosen? I don't think the other parties including Labour have changed from the 'tough on crime tough on the causes' mantra; which doesn't mean reducing crime rates by abolishing the offence.



I don't see how the drug policy is a moral one; it looks more like a practical one to me.

It's moral, in that it is thought to be protecting people from themselves. We have had many years of seeing the effects of drug abuse on individuals and it's consequential overspill into society generally. There is, as yet, no credible evidence to suggest the dangers don't exist arguably quite the reverse.


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je suis Charlie
post May 18 2017, 08:59 PM
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My take on the cannabis debate is the lib Dems think it'll make all the difference with young voters. If you were 19 and someone said "we'll let you buy weed in the high st" you're probably gonna vote lib dem. ****, if they offered a quiet night in and a lifetime supply of Ralgex I'd vote for them, maybe.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post May 18 2017, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 18 2017, 09:59 PM) *
My take on the cannabis debate is the lib Dems think it'll make all the difference with young voters. If you were 19 and someone said "we'll let you buy weed in the high st" you're probably gonna vote lib dem. ****, if they offered a quiet night in and a lifetime supply of Ralgex I'd vote for them, maybe.


They'll be too stoned to vote.😂 Timmy is worse than Corbyn. They'll be wiped out.
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blackdog
post May 18 2017, 09:23 PM
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Now the Tory manifesto is out and it seems that, while Labour want to tax the rich, the Tories want to tax the middle class old and infirm. And the BBC tell me it is a lurch to the left!
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Turin Machine
post May 18 2017, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ May 18 2017, 10:23 PM) *
Now the Tory manifesto is out and it seems that, while Labour want to tax the rich, the Tories want to tax the middle class old and infirm. And the BBC tell me it is a lurch to the left!

Dont gasp but I agree, I think the first responsibility of any civilised nation is to care for the old and infirm. I love the way they say " you will be able to leave your children £100k" About enough to buy a rasperry mivvi when split beween four. Simply gift your house to a descendant you can trust before its too late. Cant take it if its not yours.
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Andy Capp
post May 18 2017, 11:06 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 09:44 PM)
QUOTE ('Andy Capp')
I'm not sure anecdotes are measure of national mood on any particular subject, or even if it matters. We all know what a bunch of dumbarses the electorate can be.

Sadly, as the LibDem manifesto demonstrates the dumbarse electorate get what they deserve, dumbarse parties.

As it is likely the Lib Dems will finish no higher than 3rd, using your measurement, the Tories and Labour are dumber!

QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 09:44 PM)
QUOTE ('Andy Capp')
Aren't those things currently illegal; what are they meant to do: make them more illegal? What are labour doing about it?
That's the point, cannibis and running brothels are illegal today. Why have these crimes and not other 'social crimes' been chosen? I don't think the other parties including Labour have changed from the 'tough on crime tough on the causes' mantra; which doesn't mean reducing crime rates by abolishing the offence.

If the activity is perceived to be benign, why should we need to maintain its illegal status? Of course, there is an ugly side to drug abuse or prostitution, but taxation could fund initiatives to help control that.

If your view is that the cost of policing drug abuse is reasonable and if you think the the current law and policing keeps drug abuse to a minimum then clearly the pledge is not for you, but you have not yet argued a rational case for why the pledge is repugnant or ridiculous. Disagreeable maybe, but your rantinging is on par with the other hysterical rightists on here.

QUOTE (On the edge @ May 18 2017, 09:44 PM)
QUOTE ('Andy Capp')
I don't see how the drug policy is a moral one; it looks more like a practical one to me.

It's moral, in that it is thought to be protecting people from themselves. We have had many years of seeing the effects of drug abuse on individuals and it's consequential overspill into society generally. There is, as yet, no credible evidence to suggest the dangers don't exist arguably quite the reverse.

Sorry, I didn't know you were an expert, but I am accepting in good faith that policy has been developed after consultation. I'd rather that we stop criminalising pot/weed/resin smokers and re-focus resources on other areas that might need resources. Cybercrime for instance.
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