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TallDarkAndHands...
post Mar 26 2017, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 26 2017, 11:35 AM) *
The 1975 referendum showed a large (35%) majority in favour of joining the common market. 40 years later a second referendum showed a narrow (4%) majority in favour of leaving. If a 35% majority can be reassessed after 40 years then a 4% majority should be reassessed far sooner.

I happen to think that the decision to leave is the fatally flawed one, but my point was not about whether we should have a third referendum just that to turn a general election into one was a mad idea.

I am, however, intrigued by leavers' fear of a second referendum - if the case for leaving is as good as they say they should be confident of an even larger majority in a second vote.


I have no fear of a second referendum. I think it would now be 60 40 in favour of leave. As the plagues of locusts and general rapture predicted by some has failed to materialise. Much to there disappointment I may add...
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newres
post Mar 26 2017, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 26 2017, 09:52 AM) *
So you think we should elect a government based on a single issue?

If the people are to get a second chance to speak on Brexit it be in another referendum, not a general election where a huge number of votes will be cast on totally different issues.

Agreed.
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Simon Kirby
post Apr 6 2017, 03:21 PM
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And now Reckless has left.


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Turin Machine
post Apr 6 2017, 04:30 PM
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As a party it died when Nigel packed it in. To be honest its a bit shambolic now and I see it in its death throes. But, it achieved it's primary aim so give it that. cool.gif
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Simon Kirby
post Apr 6 2017, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 6 2017, 05:30 PM) *
As a party it died when Nigel packed it in. To be honest its a bit shambolic now and I see it in its death throes. But, it achieved it's primary aim so give it that. cool.gif

I'm glad it's in decline, but I don't necessarily agree that it achieved its aim.

I'm no Europhile and believe that people should be free to trade with whoever they want and I think that trade agreements are little more than a protection racket. OK, so it's a little more nuanced than that because I also accept that it is the legitimate role of the state to regulate in order to protect the citizen, so I actually welcome a lot of regulation that has come out of Europe that protects the consumer, employee, and environment, and I think if the UK is going to regulate to protect its citizens then it also has an obligation only to allow imports that have been produced under equivalent regulation because if it's objectionable for example to allow UK manufacturers to employ child labour or pollute the rivers then it's hardly acceptable to out-source those objectionable practices or allow foreign manufacturers the commercial advantage of manufacturing in an unregulated regime and then selling into a regulated one, but I don't agree that there is any need for an EU administration because I don't accept that there is anything that needs administering centrally. It would of course be useful if states were to standardize regulations so that products manufactured in one state could be shown to be compliant with the regulatory requirements of another state so as to ease internation trade, but that doesn't require any super-state administration, it just requires that states cooperate to draft international standards which all states are then free to mandate or not as they please.

So like I say, I'm no Europhile, but UKIP poisoned the argument by making it about xenophobia, so whereas I'd have been happy to support a political movement that genuinely wanted to create a more just and equitable world that put the welfare and happiness of people at the centre of its politics, UKIP had nothing to offer and positively scorned my hopes for the world.

So yes, we're coming out of Europe, but I think there was an infinitely better way to win that argument, one based on international cooperation that could lead to greater peace and justice in the world. What UKIP have done in playing on people's fears and prejudices is make the world a more hateful, more intolerant place.


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newres
post Apr 6 2017, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 6 2017, 08:31 PM) *
I'm glad it's in decline, but I don't necessarily agree that it achieved its aim.

I'm no Europhile and believe that people should be free to trade with whoever they want and I think that trade agreements are little more than a protection racket. OK, so it's a little more nuanced than that because I also accept that it is the legitimate role of the state to regulate in order to protect the citizen, so I actually welcome a lot of regulation that has come out of Europe that protects the consumer, employee, and environment, and I think if the UK is going to regulate to protect its citizens then it also has an obligation only to allow imports that have been produced under equivalent regulation because if it's objectionable for example to allow UK manufacturers to employ child labour or pollute the rivers then it's hardly acceptable to out-source those objectionable practices or allow foreign manufacturers the commercial advantage of manufacturing in an unregulated regime and then selling into a regulated one, but I don't agree that there is any need for an EU administration because I don't accept that there is anything that needs administering centrally. It would of course be useful if states were to standardize regulations so that products manufactured in one state could be shown to be compliant with the regulatory requirements of another state so as to ease internation trade, but that doesn't require any super-state administration, it just requires that states cooperate to draft international standards which all states are then free to mandate or not as they please.

So like I say, I'm no Europhile, but UKIP poisoned the argument by making it about xenophobia, so whereas I'd have been happy to support a political movement that genuinely wanted to create a more just and equitable world that put the welfare and happiness of people at the centre of its politics, UKIP had nothing to offer and positively scorned my hopes for the world.

So yes, we're coming out of Europe, but I think there was an infinitely better way to win that argument, one based on international cooperation that could lead to greater peace and justice in the world. What UKIP have done in playing on people's fears and prejudices is make the world a more hateful, more intolerant place.

Hear, hear.
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je suis Charlie
post Apr 6 2017, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 6 2017, 08:31 PM) *
I'm glad it's in decline, but I don't necessarily agree that it achieved its aim.

I'm no Europhile and believe that people should be free to trade with whoever they want and I think that trade agreements are little more than a protection racket. OK, so it's a little more nuanced than that because I also accept that it is the legitimate role of the state to regulate in order to protect the citizen, so I actually welcome a lot of regulation that has come out of Europe that protects the consumer, employee, and environment, and I think if the UK is going to regulate to protect its citizens then it also has an obligation only to allow imports that have been produced under equivalent regulation because if it's objectionable for example to allow UK manufacturers to employ child labour or pollute the rivers then it's hardly acceptable to out-source those objectionable practices or allow foreign manufacturers the commercial advantage of manufacturing in an unregulated regime and then selling into a regulated one, but I don't agree that there is any need for an EU administration because I don't accept that there is anything that needs administering centrally. It would of course be useful if states were to standardize regulations so that products manufactured in one state could be shown to be compliant with the regulatory requirements of another state so as to ease internation trade, but that doesn't require any super-state administration, it just requires that states cooperate to draft international standards which all states are then free to mandate or not as they please.

So like I say, I'm no Europhile, but UKIP poisoned the argument by making it about xenophobia, so whereas I'd have been happy to support a political movement that genuinely wanted to create a more just and equitable world that put the welfare and happiness of people at the centre of its politics, UKIP had nothing to offer and positively scorned my hopes for the world.

So yes, we're coming out of Europe, but I think there was an infinitely better way to win that argument, one based on international cooperation that could lead to greater peace and justice in the world. What UKIP have done in playing on people's fears and prejudices is make the world a more hateful, more intolerant place.

And I know for a fact that unicorns live in greenham and a bunch of leprechauns ride them to work at the rainbow factory. Wake up, start to live in the real world not planet corbyn.


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newres
post Apr 7 2017, 06:55 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 6 2017, 09:19 PM) *
And I know for a fact that unicorns live in greenham and a bunch of leprechauns ride them to work at the rainbow factory. Wake up, start to live in the real world not planet corbyn.

There's no magic in the last two paragraphs. They are spot on.
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je suis Charlie
post Apr 7 2017, 03:10 PM
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Well 'talking' certainly worked for Stockholm today! Congratulations.


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newres
post Apr 7 2017, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 7 2017, 04:10 PM) *
Well 'talking' certainly worked for Stockholm today! Congratulations.

Lack of talking and military action didn't do much good for the Syrians either.
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je suis Charlie
post Apr 7 2017, 03:20 PM
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Depends on which side!


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Turin Machine
post Apr 7 2017, 03:25 PM
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There's a time for talking and a time for the big stick! Boo ya!
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newres
post Apr 7 2017, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 7 2017, 04:20 PM) *
Depends on which side!

Which ofcourse can change.
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newres
post Apr 7 2017, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 7 2017, 04:25 PM) *
There's a time for talking and a time for the big stick! Boo ya!

Although I wonder what the civilian death score is between Saudi v Assad v USA?
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je suis Charlie
post Apr 7 2017, 05:24 PM
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Time tu dust off them missiles boys! Yee har!


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newres
post Apr 9 2017, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 7 2017, 06:24 PM) *
Time tu dust off them missiles boys! Yee har!

...and then from the safety of the suburbs wring hands when Europe's capitals pay the price.
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Simon Kirby
post Apr 9 2017, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Apr 9 2017, 06:17 PM) *
...and then from the safety of the suburbs wring hands when Europe's capitals pay the price.

That's pretty much been it ever since the USA and its allies first invaded Iraq, and certainly since it toppled the regieme leaving 1Million dead and destabilised the region, provoking the creation of IS. In fact there's barely been a time since the fall of the Ottoman Empire when the west hasn't been playing off one middle east faction against another to manipulate the region for our own ends, and those pigeons are coming home to roost.


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je suis Charlie
post Apr 9 2017, 11:08 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 9 2017, 09:26 PM) *
That's pretty much been it ever since the USA and its allies first invaded Iraq, and certainly since it toppled the regieme leaving 1Million dead and destabilised the region, provoking the creation of IS. In fact there's barely been a time since the fall of the Ottoman Empire when the west hasn't been playing off one middle east faction against another to manipulate the region for our own ends, and those pigeons are coming home to roost.

Notice it didn't stop tony Blair (Labour) and his cronies from taking us into the very same conflict with made up justification cos he thought it would make a good chapter in his memoirs!


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Simon Kirby
post Apr 10 2017, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 10 2017, 12:08 AM) *
Notice it didn't stop tony Blair (Labour) and his cronies from taking us into the very same conflict with made up justification cos he thought it would make a good chapter in his memoirs!

If it read like I was obfuscating that fact then I apologise, that wasn't my intention. The invasion of Iraq under the fabricated pretext of WMD was a horrendous thing and the misery of that decision will be working itself out for the rest of the century. That was a decision made by a Labour government under Tony Blair and people should indeed be reminded of that.


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je suis Charlie
post Apr 10 2017, 04:45 PM
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Thank you for the clarification.


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