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> Kippers for Breakfast
Simon Kirby
post Mar 25 2017, 12:26 PM
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Please note that the grilled Clacton kipper is off the menu. House of Commons Terrace Cafeteria.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Mar 25 2017, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 25 2017, 12:26 PM) *
Please note that the grilled Clacton kipper is off the menu. House of Commons Terrace Cafeteria.


You seem delighted that millions (more than the whole of the snp vote) are now represented by no one. A great day for democracy.👍
Still people shouldn't be represented if they have views out of kilter. Eh.... rolleyes.gif
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je suis Charlie
post Mar 25 2017, 06:55 PM
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Wonder what Jeremy has for breakfast? (Whenever he's not bewailing the death of a terrorist) whatever it is it gives him the Trots!! Boom boom!
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Simon Kirby
post Mar 25 2017, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Mar 25 2017, 05:16 PM) *
Still people shouldn't be represented if they have views out of kilter. Eh.... rolleyes.gif

Maybe you're thinking about some other form of government, because it's pretty much the definition of democracy that the majority view prevails and if you're out of kilter with that then you just have to deal with it.


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Turin Machine
post Mar 25 2017, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 25 2017, 07:27 PM) *
Maybe you're thinking about some other form of government, because it's pretty much the definition of democracy that the majority view prevails and if you're out of kilter with that then you just have to deal with it.

Ha! And Ha again! Try telling that to the remoaners!
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Mar 25 2017, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 25 2017, 07:27 PM) *
Maybe you're thinking about some other form of government, because it's pretty much the definition of democracy that the majority view prevails and if you're out of kilter with that then you just have to deal with it.

laugh.gif you sound like a bitter Tim Farron.
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je suis Charlie
post Mar 25 2017, 08:52 PM
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The lib dems wanted farron
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Andy Capp
post Mar 25 2017, 09:32 PM
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Democracy guaranties nothing, including ensuring decency.
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Simon Kirby
post Mar 25 2017, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Mar 25 2017, 07:49 PM) *
Ha! And Ha again! Try telling that to the remoaners!

Yeah, sure, not everyone gets democracy, though you haven't heard me complain, but I do think it's a bit rich when people use the mandate of the referendum to take such an absolute position on Brexit but then demand concessions for their own minority views on other matters.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Mar 25 2017, 10:35 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 25 2017, 09:55 PM) *
Yeah, sure, not everyone gets democracy, though you haven't heard me complain, but I do think it's a bit rich when people use the mandate of the referendum to take such an absolute position on Brexit but then demand concessions for their own minority views on other matters.

An election is different to a referendum. But then you know that. Or are you saying when we have an election whoever gets the biggest percentage should get all the seats in parliament?
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newres
post Mar 26 2017, 05:59 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Mar 25 2017, 10:35 PM) *
An election is different to a referendum. But then you know that. Or are you saying when we have an election whoever gets the biggest percentage should get all the seats in parliament?

And election results are different every time. People change their minds which so 52% v 48% one year could reverse 5 years later which is why such monumental changes would need a little more than a simple majority on a single day.
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Simon Kirby
post Mar 26 2017, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Mar 25 2017, 10:35 PM) *
An election is different to a referendum. But then you know that. Or are you saying when we have an election whoever gets the biggest percentage should get all the seats in parliament?

You were using a vague appeal to "democracy" to complain about how representative parliamentary democracy doesn't now represent your personal politics and then bolstering your argument by implying that the views of the 3.8 Million people that voted UKIP in the last GE share the entirety of your political outlook and are likewise unrepresented.


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Simon Kirby
post Mar 26 2017, 08:00 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Mar 26 2017, 05:59 AM) *
And election results are different every time. People change their minds which so 52% v 48% one year could reverse 5 years later which is why such monumental changes would need a little more than a simple majority on a single day.

That's true, it's a nonsense to think that the result must stand for all time and that the question can't ever be returned to, but that doesn't negate the referendum result this time round and like it or not democracy has spoken so we need to negotiate an exit. However, once the negotiations are over and we can see what Brexit actually means, I think it would be reasonable for the government to call a general election to seek an informed mandate to Brexit.


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blackdog
post Mar 26 2017, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Mar 26 2017, 09:00 AM) *
That's true, it's a nonsense to think that the result must stand for all time and that the question can't ever be returned to, but that doesn't negate the referendum result this time round and like it or not democracy has spoken so we need to negotiate an exit. However, once the negotiations are over and we can see what Brexit actually means, I think it would be reasonable for the government to call a general election to seek an informed mandate to Brexit.

So you think we should elect a government based on a single issue?

If the people are to get a second chance to speak on Brexit it be in another referendum, not a general election where a huge number of votes will be cast on totally different issues.
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Turin Machine
post Mar 26 2017, 09:29 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 26 2017, 08:52 AM) *
So you think we should elect a government based on a single issue?

If the people are to get a second chance to speak on Brexit it be in another referendum, not a general election where a huge number of votes will be cast on totally different issues.

I forget, how many referendums did we have last time, you remember, when we made the momentous (and fatally flawed) decision to enter the common market? Bloody hypocrisy! angry.gif
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blackdog
post Mar 26 2017, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Mar 26 2017, 10:29 AM) *
I forget, how many referendums did we have last time, you remember, when we made the momentous (and fatally flawed) decision to enter the common market? Bloody hypocrisy! angry.gif


The 1975 referendum showed a large (35%) majority in favour of joining the common market. 40 years later a second referendum showed a narrow (4%) majority in favour of leaving. If a 35% majority can be reassessed after 40 years then a 4% majority should be reassessed far sooner.

I happen to think that the decision to leave is the fatally flawed one, but my point was not about whether we should have a third referendum just that to turn a general election into one was a mad idea.

I am, however, intrigued by leavers' fear of a second referendum - if the case for leaving is as good as they say they should be confident of an even larger majority in a second vote.
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Cognosco
post Mar 26 2017, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 26 2017, 10:35 AM) *
The 1975 referendum showed a large (35%) majority in favour of joining the common market. 40 years later a second referendum showed a narrow (4%) majority in favour of leaving. If a 35% majority can be reassessed after 40 years then a 4% majority should be reassessed far sooner.

I happen to think that the decision to leave is the fatally flawed one, but my point was not about whether we should have a third referendum just that to turn a general election into one was a mad idea.

I am, however, intrigued by leavers' fear of a second referendum - if the case for leaving is as good as they say they should be confident of an even larger majority in a second vote.


I see the major flaw of stating we will have a referendum after negotiations will be that the Europe negotiators will ensure that we have a very poor deal to ensure that the UK electorate will not accept it? Do we then keep on negotiating and having referendums? huh.gif


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je suis Charlie
post Mar 26 2017, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Mar 26 2017, 11:45 AM) *
I see the major flaw of stating we will have a referendum after negotiations will be that the Europe negotiators will ensure that we have a very poor deal to ensure that the UK electorate will not accept it? Do we then keep on negotiating and having referendums? huh.gif

Wot, like Scotland?
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blackdog
post Mar 26 2017, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Mar 26 2017, 12:45 PM) *
I see the major flaw of stating we will have a referendum after negotiations will be that the Europe negotiators will ensure that we have a very poor deal to ensure that the UK electorate will not accept it? Do we then keep on negotiating and having referendums? huh.gif


It's a fair point, but the trend at present seems to be aiming at leaving without a deal - which means the EU negotiators would only be relevant in terms of the blame Brexiteers can pile on them for the lack of a deal.

In reality two years is a seriously tight timescale for a trade deal (it would be the fastet ever negotiated by EU) and they have to fit in all the complex exit negotiations in the same time. I doubt if we have the capability to do it; the EU might, but they've also got to get the agreement of 27 governments.


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Simon Kirby
post Mar 26 2017, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Mar 26 2017, 09:52 AM) *
So you think we should elect a government based on a single issue?

If the people are to get a second chance to speak on Brexit it be in another referendum, not a general election where a huge number of votes will be cast on totally different issues.

That's just the point, this isn't a single issue. The details of the Brexit deal touch on every aspect of government - economy, defence, immigration, human rights, environment, employment law, tax - everything. The question at the June referendum was very narrow and for such a significant decision the government need a mandate for the totality of those changes, and more especially so because May has so far been reluctant to engage parliament in those details.


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