I don't believe it! Options

[TallDarkAndHands...]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11076674

WTF - So hang on. You have a convicted person who is a known MENTALLY ILL VIOLENT CRIMINAL. I know what we'll do - Let them out to mix with all and sundry but hey at least we will know where they are when they strangle / murder / rape some innocenet member of society. This may have been 'successful' to start with but its only a matter of time....

[HeatherW]

Releasing criminals back into the community is cheaper than keep them in. If he should recommit then back inside. That is always going to be the cheapest option.

[On the edge]

Releasing criminals back into the community is cheaper than keep them in. If he should recommit then back inside. That is always going to be the cheapest option.

Not convinced that keeping them inside needs to be an expensive option. It is today, granted but it depends on the regime.

[user23]

Not convinced that keeping them inside needs to be an expensive option. It is today, granted but it depends on the regime.

Putting a roof over someone's head and giving them two or three meals a day is always going to be reasonably expensive.

[On the edge]

Putting a roof over someone's head and giving them two or three meals a day is always going to be reasonably expensive.

A cost agreed, but balanced against the cost of correcting what petty criminals do over time its often justified. I know this will cause some misgivings but a prison regime which is really harsh - i.e. cells with concrete floors and just basic bedding, and three meals per day comprising of repetitive basic rations wouldn't be particularly costly. Heating to base HSE standard and a heavy work plan. Would get rid of the idea that prison is a rest camp and would also reduce the cost of building them - ex army camps would be ideal.

[user23]

A cost agreed, but balanced against the cost of correcting what petty criminals do over time its often justified. I know this will cause some misgivings but a prison regime which is really harsh - i.e. cells with concrete floors and just basic bedding, and three meals per day comprising of repetitive basic rations wouldn't be particularly costly. Heating to base HSE standard and a heavy work plan. Would get rid of the idea that prison is a rest camp and would also reduce the cost of building them - ex army camps would be ideal.

I think you'd be surprised how much it costs. Then there's the cost of buying the land and building new prisons to accommodate all these petty criminals.

Of course once inside it gives small time crooks a chance to mingle with others and those further up the food chain helping them perfect their art and giving them a valuable network of contacts once back on the outside.

[On the edge]

I think you'd be surprised how much it costs. Then there's the cost of buying the land and building new prisons to accommodate all these petty criminals.

Of course once inside it gives small time crooks a chance to mingle with others and those further up the food chain helping them perfect their art and giving them a valuable network of contacts once back on the outside.

Once things got underway on the basis that it should work, the costs would fall - wouldn't need as many. Very basic construction and a diy approach by inmates could keep cost under control. Mingling with others - Reading prison was actually built on the 'solitary system' designed to avoid that. Hence the treadmill there had separate compartments to stop any association. Treadmill needn't go to waste these days if it was connected to a generator. Again, not nice, but that's what its all about. Not inhumane but very very tough. We often forget the prime purpose of punishment isn't to rehabilitate. More as retribution to avenge the wrongdoers deeds and as a deterent to others.

[user23]

Once things got underway on the basis that it should work, the costs would fall - wouldn't need as many. Very basic construction and a diy approach by inmates could keep cost under control. Mingling with others - Reading prison was actually built on the 'solitary system' designed to avoid that. Hence the treadmill there had separate compartments to stop any association. Treadmill needn't go to waste these days if it was connected to a generator. Again, not nice, but that's what its all about. Not inhumane but very very tough. We often forget the prime purpose of punishment isn't to rehabilitate. More as retribution to avenge the wrongdoers deeds and as a deterent to others.

Let's say for example I didn't pay a parking ticket or my council tax, I'm not sure locking me up for 23 hours a day is going to make me want to contribute to society any more, in fact it might make me want to learn from my fellow inmates how to contribute less.

You're probably going to reply "I didn't mean that sort of crime" however if you're going to operate a zero tolerance approach to wrong doing it has to be across the board.

[On the edge]

Let's say for example I didn't pay a parking ticket or my council tax, I'm not sure locking me up for 23 hours a day is going to make me want to contribute to society any more, in fact it might make me want to learn from my fellow inmates how to contribute less.

You're probably going to reply "I didn't mean that sort of crime" however if you're going to operate a zero tolerance approach to wrong doing it has to be across the board.

Its a final penalty, yes for both criminal and civil matters after due process. You can go to gaol for non payment of Community Charges as a final action for instance. Again, nothing wrong with that and might bring a bit of discipline to the financial services industry and its customers. As for the 'university of crime' concept - that's why I mentioned the 'separation system' which was in place 1840s onwards - once inside, you didn't talk to anyone save the warder or the chaplin. So you'd have a fair time to contemplate the error of your ways!

[user23]

once inside, you didn't talk to anyone save the warder or the chaplin. So you'd have a fair time to contemplate the error of your ways!

Or plot how you're going to get back at those that put you inside.

[Bloggo]

Or plot how you're going to get back at those that put you inside.

If they are given the correct treatment for their misdemeanors the last thing they will consider is the possibility of going back to jail.
The soft options in jails have to stop. You can't teach a man that crime does not pay when he has 3 good meals day, TV, games, mobile phones, etc etc.
Until society learns that it has to get tough for the sake of the public and the criminal then crime will increase year on year.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

If they are given the correct treatment for their misdemeanors the last thing they will consider is the possibility of going back to jail.
The soft options in jails have to stop. You can't teach a man that crime does not pay when he has 3 good meals day, TV, games, mobile phones, etc etc.
Until society learns that it has to get tough for the sake of the public and the criminal then crime will increase year on year.

You won't win that argument with a lot of the users of this forum. They would rather pat them on the head, give them benefits and therapy and wonder why oh why they could reoffend when released. They don't get the fact that some people are just 'bad'.

[Iommi]

They don't get the fact that some people are just 'bad'.

...and some people aren't.

[Bloggo]

...and some people aren't.

and some are.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

and some are.

Watch out Bloggo. We'll be accused of being right wing extremists soon... By the way I'll see you at the Klan meeting on Saturday if not before.

[Iommi]

Watch out Bloggo. We'll be accused of being right wing extremists soon... By the way I'll see you at the Klan meeting on Saturday if not before.

Some on here already realise you are that.

[Biker1]

Some on here already realise you are that.

Right Wing - yes.............Extremest - No.

[Iommi]

Right Wing - yes.............Extremest - No.

...unless you had your way!

[Biker1]

...unless you had your way!

Well the way I see it some right wing policies have to be adopted if we are to get ourselves out of the social mess we are in.

[Bloggo]

Well the way I see it some right wing policies have to be adopted if we are to get ourselves out of the social mess we are in.

I agree. Some people have their head in the sand.
If you have suffered a break-in or been assaulted and robbed you may think differently.

[Iommi]

Could be a case for deformation of character

Only if it were directed at anyone in particular who could be identified in public and if it were untrue!

I agree. Some people have their head in the sand.
If you have suffered a break-in or been assaulted and robbed you may think differently.

This all happened in the 'good old days' of hanging and slopping-out as well. This isn't new phenomena.

[Bloggo]

Only if it were directed at anyone in particular who could be identified in public and if it were untrue!

You are quite correct but one must exercise care when making inflamitary statements.

This all happened in the 'good old days' of hanging and slopping-out as well. This isn't new phenomena.

And you point is what exactly?

[Iommi]

You are quite correct but one must exercise care when making inflamitary statements.

It was a joke (wink smilie), but never mind.

And you point is what exactly?

When prison was 'tuff', people still broke the law as they do today. You are implying by going back that it would fix the problem.

Bloggo: "I agree. Some people have their head in the sand. If you have suffered a break-in or been assaulted and robbed you may think differently.".

I'm not sure it would.

[Bloggo]

It was a joke (wink smilie), but never mind.


When prison was 'tuff', people still broke the law as they do today. You are implying by going back that it would fix the problem.

Bloggo: "I agree. Some people have their head in the sand. If you have suffered a break-in or been assaulted and robbed you may think differently.".

I'm not sure it would.

Really, I'm absoloutly sure.

[Iommi]

Really, I'm absoloutly sure.

Despite history as proof you might be wrong?

Quite agree. It would make ME feel better though as a law abiding citizen to see individuals who break the law be made to pay for it in terms of infringements on liberty and a tough regime. Not what we have at the moment.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11156972

As a person is in a gaol, you wouldn't 'see' justice done. As for the link, that isn't about life in prison.

[Bloggo]

Despite history as proof you might be wrong?

If the punishment is strong enough then yes I am sure.

[user23]

If the punishment is strong enough then yes I am sure.

History says otherwise.

We used to have the death penalty for theft, yet that didn't deter everyone from stealing.

[On the edge]

History says otherwise.

We used to have the death penalty for theft, yet that didn't deter everyone from stealing.

Really??? That's not how I read it. The reason for stealing when such penalties were rife was to prevent starvation. In other words the possibility of death in either case. Have a look at the published works on victorian prisons.

[dannyboy]

Really??? That's not how I read it. The reason for stealing when such penalties were rife was to prevent starvation. In other words the possibility of death in either case. Have a look at the published works on victorian prisons.

Published works on Victorian Prisons?

Far better to look at the Calendar Rolls.