West Berkshire schoolchildren routinely fingerprinted, SCHOOLCHILDREN are being routinely fingerprinted in some West Berkshir Options

[user23]

Yes, that's my issue.

What's the issue? Surely the school store lots of data about their pupils?

The problem most people have I think is that fingerprinting has long been associated with catching criminals rather than proving one's identity.

[On the edge]

Going back to an earlier comment - is collecting dinner money such a big issue that it needs such an elaborate solution. We used to have a dinner money monitor, then I suppose we used to have an education.

[user23]

Going back to an earlier comment - is collecting dinner money such a big issue that it needs such an elaborate solution. We used to have a dinner money monitor, then I suppose we used to have an education.

Perhaps because of the evolution of technology it's not such an elaborate solution these days.

I've got a fingerprint scanner on the laptop I'm using for example, so I don't have to type in a password if I choose not to.

[Berkshirelad]

I think that the issue with schools (and other organisations) using fingerprints to identify any individual is exactly as described here. It is up to the individual (or in school the parents or individual) to say whether this is an acceptable form of id. This leads to the question of whether rights can be removed because of refusal to use fingerprints. For example if this is used for library borrowing can a school solely use fingerprints or should they use another method as well? Can a school refuse library access because of a refusal?

Well, if it is for Free School Meals, then they cannot refuse to supply the child with a meal...

[blackdog]

The key for me here is more than just about the fingerprints (and the civil liberty issues) but the lack of information provided to adults who decide on something that could impact the child throughout their lives. Sending out a leaflet says "it is all ok" is just tosh.

What civil liberty issues?

In what way is the use of biometrics an abuse of civil liberty? Taking the issue to the extreme assume there is a national database of everyone's fingerprints available to anyone to use. What is the impact?

Obviously it would encourage thieves etc to wear gloves (making everyone wearing gloves a bit suspicious). In general it would make it easier to identify wrong-doers - is this a bad thing? It would make it easy for anyone to check someone else's identity - is this a bad thing? It would make it harder to commit crime - is this a bad thing?

[On the edge]

Perhaps because of the evolution of technology it's not such an elaborate solution these days.

I've got a fingerprint scanner on the laptop I'm using for example, so I don't have to type in a password if I choose not to.

I'm sure you are right. Then someone has had to write a programme, train the staff and kids, etc. etc, and then pay software licences and maintain the system. Onward march of technology agreed but when schools are said to be short of cash? May seem trifling, but all these little excursions add up.

For me, its probably an age thing! Then again, coming from that era, some of us wrinklies do get a bit bothered. Room 101 for me then!

[Bartholomew]

What civil liberty issues?

In what way is the use of biometrics an abuse of civil liberty? Taking the issue to the extreme assume there is a national database of everyone's fingerprints available to anyone to use. What is the impact?

Obviously it would encourage thieves etc to wear gloves (making everyone wearing gloves a bit suspicious). In general it would make it easier to identify wrong-doers - is this a bad thing? It would make it easy for anyone to check someone else's identity - is this a bad thing? It would make it harder to commit crime - is this a bad thing?

There is a lot of information already available to be able to identify and track who people and what they're doing. It is what people and organisations do with this information that is the problem. The government doesn't have a great track record in securing data so I'm sceptical that this data (or any current data) would remain secure.

I belonged to a sports club that introduced fingerprints as method of signing in and out. I (and a number of others) were very concerned that this information wasn't secure and refused to use it. My view is that there are easier and less controversial ways to identify someone. Its just as easy to avoid this kind of controversy by issuing a token such as a library card or membership card after verification.

Yes Ive heard the argument that if you have nothing to hide what's the problem with using this information. I simply don't believe that the information will always be kept for the purposes it was originally identified for.

[Strafin]

Can teachers not remember who their own pupils are?

[user23]

I simply don't believe that the information will always be kept for the purposes it was originally identified for.

What else do you think it could be used for?

You do realise most adults leave an electronic trail through bank cards, mobile devices and so on that makes them very easy to track by those with access to the records, such as the Police.

[NWNREADER]

You do realise most adults leave an electronic trail through bank cards, mobile devices and so on that makes them very easy to track by those with access to the records, such as the Police.

I assure you it is easier for the criminal/non legal groups to do that than it is for any official 'enforcement' body.
You are right about how much information we place 'out there' that is capable of misuse.

[On the edge]

All thin end of the wedge stuff isn't it. We were told that access to privileged personal information by local government officials would be restricted to the most serious cases; primarily to combat terrorism. As exampled by the checking that parents didn't bend the truth when securing places at popular schools. Apparently we are the most controlled population in the free world - why?

[Bartholomew]

What else do you think it could be used for?

You do realise most adults leave an electronic trail through bank cards, mobile devices and so on that makes them very easy to track by those with access to the records, such as the Police.

I probably know this better than you do Extending this by statute rather than by my choice is the issue I have.. I choose to use my card or phone as I want and know what is likely to be stored. I don't choose to have my fingerprints taken and stored on a central database. Both commercial and government organisations realise that having data means having control and both exploit this as far as they can, often exceeding their authority.
The abuse by authorities of stored data is already widespread. For example using councils using surveillance powers introduced for terrorism to see if parents are sending children to the appropriate school.

[user23]

I probably know this better than you do Extending this by statute rather than by my choice is the issue I have.. I choose to use my card or phone as I want and know what is likely to be stored. I don't choose to have my fingerprints taken and stored on a central database. Both commercial and government organisations realise that having data means having control and both exploit this as far as they can, often exceeding their authority.
The abuse by authorities of stored data is already widespread. For example using councils using surveillance powers introduced for terrorism to see if parents are sending children to the appropriate school.

Who's extending this by statute?

[blackdog]

It is what people and organisations do with this information that is the problem. The government doesn't have a great track record in securing data so I'm sceptical that this data (or any current data) would remain secure.

Does it matter? To reiterate my question - assume that everyone's fingerprints are readily available from a free database (100% insecure in terms of read access). What harm would come from it?

[On the edge]

Does it matter? To reiterate my question - assume that everyone's fingerprints are readily available from a free database (100% insecure in terms of read access). What harm would come from it?

When you think of it Blackdog, what harm would come from making all our personal data readily available?

[Adrian Hollister]

When you think of it Blackdog, what harm would come from making all our personal data readily available?

Control of information is critical to governments. They use it to control people. Businesses do the same as do terrorists, religions etc...

There is a good argument that says if it's all freely available to everyone then the importance of the information goes away. If this is the case, then why do so many people feel compelled to hide on-line behind alias?

I suspect though that the question of the boundary of safe release of information is a very generational - youngest most likely to allow (because it's something they are used too) and the oldest least likely to allow.

[blackdog]

When you think of it Blackdog, what harm would come from making all our personal data readily available?

It's fairly obvious that disclosure of personal data like bank account details, pin numbers, passwords etc could readily be used to our detriment. But fingerprints?

Apart from protecting me from being identified as the perpetrator of a crime what advantage is there to me in having my fingerprints kept secret?

[On the edge]

It's fairly obvious that disclosure of personal data like bank account details, pin numbers, passwords etc could readily be used to our detriment. But fingerprints?

Apart from protecting me from being identified as the perpetrator of a crime what advantage is there to me in having my fingerprints kept secret?

Sure, security codes kept confidential, but if fingerprints are OK - why not publish the full electoral roll, tax records, telephone directory info, ans so forth? Lets go a stage further, why not all public administration records as well? What's good for the goose is good for the gander?

[dannyboy]

can some one explain what use to anyone an 8 year old's fingerprint details are?

[Jo Pepper]

can some one explain what use to anyone an 8 year old's fingerprint details are?

Who knows? What will they be worth in 40 years time when I'm old, grumpy and voting tory (ok perhaps not the last bit). Would I want my children tracked, no. Are they old enough to decide for themselves, no. Should we finger print them, no.