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> Turner painting of Donnington to be auctioned, when is a Turner not a Turner?
Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2011, 03:31 AM
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It would seem that Joseph Mallord William Turner, a world famous Romantic landscape painter, painted Donnington Castle. I have never heard of this before. I understand that William Turner of Oxford (a different Turner than the one famous for painting 'The Fighting Temeraire') painted a very similar picture to that listed at Dreweatts.

Are there any art gurus on this forum that could confirm whether the picture is a legitimate JMW Turner, or not? I have a feeling a mistake has been made.


Turner's Donnington Castle painting up at auction



Donnington Castle, taken from a Field adjoining the Road to East Ilsley, from Newbury - by William Turner of Oxford
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Dodgys smarter b...
post Dec 14 2011, 07:51 AM
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If that picture is actually the one being sold, then I can assure you that Trading Standards should be called in.

The Oxford William Turner is not the same as J.M.W. Turner.

The second picture is a coloured engraving taken from the first.

Are Drewetts claiming that it is by JMWT or is that just an assumption by the NWN and the story allowed to go out unchecked by the auction house to drum up interest?

What's that I hear you say? Skullduggery in the art world? The NWN not knowing what it's doing? Which do you think is most likely?

Actually, thinking about it, it could be either couldn't it?

Good spot Mr Capp.

Expect this story to be changed as the day goes on.
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2011, 09:35 AM
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QUOTE (Dodgys smarter brother. @ Dec 14 2011, 07:51 AM) *
Are Drewetts claiming that it is by JMWT or is that just an assumption by the NWN and the story allowed to go out unchecked by the auction house to drum up interest?

It is Drewwitts that are making the claim: Lot 82: Donnington Castle, Newbury, Berkshire by JMW Turner RA

My evidence comes from the fact that if one performs an Internet search for Turner and Donnington, this picture is almost non-existent. If Turner had painted this, you would get many. This painting might be Turner (Turner of Oxford), but I fear not by Britain's favourite artist, JMW Turner.

If it is the famous JMW Turner, then I'm quite excited, as I have not heard of this before.


Would NWN relentless news hounds investigate?
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admin
post Dec 14 2011, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Dec 14 2011, 09:35 AM) *
My evidence comes from the fact that if one performs an Internet search for Turner and Donnington, this picture is almost non-existent. If Turner had painted this, you would get many. This painting might be Turner, but I fear not by Britain's favourite artist.

It is Drewwitts that are making the claim: Lot 82: Donnington Castle, Newbury, Berkshire by JMW Turner RA


Morning all. We have checked (again) the authenticity of the painting with Dreweatts who have confirmed it is an original watercolour by JMW Turner.
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Simon Kirby
post Dec 14 2011, 10:00 AM
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Government Art Collection says Andy Capp is right.

Confusingly enough The Tate has a sketch by JMW Turner of Donnington Castle - the one in Shropshire.

Very good spot Andy Capp, certainly needs some clarification.


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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2011, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE (admin @ Dec 14 2011, 09:48 AM) *
Morning all. We have checked (again) the authenticity of the painting with Dreweatts who have confirmed it is an original watercolour by JMW Turner.

It just really surprises me that there is not more on this on the Internet. I still doubt Dreweatts. Havimg said that, it does seem to have 'RA' at the end of the signature and it is meant to have been authenticated by Sotherby's.
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JeffG
post Dec 14 2011, 10:53 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Dec 14 2011, 10:15 AM) *
Havimg said that, it does seem to have 'RA' at the end of the signature and it is meant to have been authenticated by Sotherby's.

However, The Government Art Collection (link in Simon Kirby's post) styles the Oxford Turner as "W. Turner R.A.". Since the engraving is still in that collection, it makes it more than likely that this is the original JWA Turner. I prefer to believe Dreweatt's than idle speculation (although interesting!).
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2011, 11:08 AM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 14 2011, 10:53 AM) *
However, The Government Art Collection (link in Simon Kirby's post) styles the Oxford Turner as "W. Turner R.A.". Since the engraving is still in that collection, it makes it more than likely that this is the original JWA Turner. I prefer to believe Dreweatt's than idle speculation (although interesting!).

I would expect an original JMW Turner (Joseph Mallord William Turner RA) to have a number of images on the Internet. This is not so. I know this is not proof, but I find it surprising. There is an image attributed to William Turner (aka Turner of Oxford) which is similar to the image above.

I am not by any means an expert, but it surprises me. Did Turner of Oxford rip JMW Turner off?
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Simon Kirby
post Dec 14 2011, 11:08 AM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 14 2011, 10:53 AM) *
However, The Government Art Collection (link in Simon Kirby's post) styles the Oxford Turner as "W. Turner R.A.". Since the engraving is still in that collection, it makes it more than likely that this is the original JWA Turner. I prefer to believe Dreweatt's than idle speculation (although interesting!).

Not quite clear what you're saying.

Government Art Collection attributes their painting to William Turner (of Oxford) and it says under the painting "Drawn by W. Turner R.A". Wikipedia tells me that William Turner (of Oxford) held his first exhibitionn at the Royal Academy in 1807 - that entitles him to style himslef W. Turner RA doesn't it?

The Dreweatts engraving is not actually the same painting, though it's obviously the same scene, so it's plausible (thought confiusing) that it's actually by JMW Turner, but I'd like to know more.

Who's JWA Turner?


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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2011, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Dec 14 2011, 11:08 AM) *
The Dreweatts engraving is not actually the same painting, though it's obviously the same scene, so it's plausible (thought confiusing) that it's actually by JMW Turner, but I'd like to know more.

Dreweatts have a watercolour painting, the other one is an engraving. Both compositions are identical except for the colours. The colours of the watercolour do look like a 'JMW Turner', with that brown/red theme.

I would like to to be a JMW Turner, it is good to think he visited here and painted the most prominent scene in the area. I'd like to get a reproduction, hence my initial 'idle' investigation. It also seems extraordinary that Turner of Oxford would copy a JMW Turner original without there being a reference to him doing so it somewhere. Both artists did watercolour landscapes.
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Dodgys smarter b...
post Dec 14 2011, 12:42 PM
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There is certainly no mention of Donnington on this list of Castles from the Turner Web Site

Castles by THE Turner
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JeffG
post Dec 14 2011, 12:43 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Dec 14 2011, 11:08 AM) *
Not quite clear what you're saying.

Andy Capp was suggesting in his post (#6) that the 'RA' in the signature implied JMW Turner. I was just pointing out that the Oxford Turner was also styled as RA.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Dec 14 2011, 11:08 AM) *
Who's JWA Turner?

So I got my initials mixed up wink.gif
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2011, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 14 2011, 12:43 PM) *
Andy Capp was suggesting in his post (#6) that the 'RA' in the signature implied JMW Turner. I was just pointing out that the Oxford Turner was also styled as RA.

I think, like myself, Simon didn't understand your rationale with "Since the engraving is still in that collection, it makes it more than likely that this is the original JWA Turner."
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post Dec 14 2011, 01:15 PM
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Interesting that there is no Castle called Donnington in Shropshire




But allowing for 'artistic license'...these look awfully alike.
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2011, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (Dodgys smarter brother. @ Dec 14 2011, 01:15 PM) *
Interesting that there is no Castle called Donnington in Shropshire

And the one that 'is', looks like our ruin.
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NWNREADER
post Dec 14 2011, 01:30 PM
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Does this help?

Note the comment 'currently untraced'
Donnington Castle
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2011, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Dec 14 2011, 01:30 PM) *
Does this help?

Note the comment 'currently untraced'
Donnington Castle

It does, yes. So Turner of Oxford might have 'stole' the image? And someone might want to notify the Tate of its whereabouts!
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post Dec 14 2011, 01:36 PM
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Except that we know Sothebys had it in 1999. (If it's the same one) Without a picture we just don't know.
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2011, 01:37 PM
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QUOTE (Dodgys smarter brother. @ Dec 14 2011, 01:36 PM) *
Except that we know Sothebys had it in 1999. (If it's the same one) Without a picture we just don't know.

True, it might not be the same image, but if I were a betting man, I'd say it is the one! This presumably adds to the prestigiousness of it?
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Simon Kirby
post Dec 14 2011, 04:16 PM
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I'm wondering if JMW Turner painted the original that Dreweatts are selling today, and that the print from an engraving made my William and Letitia Byrne that's in the Government Art Collection is made from that JMW Turner original and erroneously attributed to William Turner of Oxford by the engravers.


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