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> Israel vs Hamas
Andy Capp
post Jul 24 2014, 12:38 PM
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Is it not the case that Hamas are a terrorist organisation, but was elected into power? Is it not the case Hamas will not stop shelling Israel? What are the issues with this conflict?
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Bloggo
post Jul 24 2014, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jul 24 2014, 01:38 PM) *
Is it not the case that Hamas are a terrorist organisation, but was elected into power? Is it not the case Hamas will not stop shelling Israel? What are the issues with this conflict?

In a nutshell, Hamas believe that the Isrealis are in their land and they want it back.


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Andy Capp
post Jul 24 2014, 04:43 PM
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I'm just wondering if there are not Northern Ireland parallels? Palestine are not going to go away, so perhaps this will just run endlessly?
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Turin Machine
post Jul 24 2014, 06:13 PM
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No, simply because the Israelis have tanks, planes and copters whilst the Palestinians are throwing rocks.


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blackdog
post Jul 24 2014, 06:22 PM
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The Israelis have occupied most of Palestine, and are viewed by the locals as little more than the latest version of the crusades - yet another western invasion of their homeland. Of course the Israelis claim they were given this land by God (kicking out the earlier Palestinians in the process) - many of them later left, but not all. Some converted to Islam and stayed - today we would call them Palestinians. The emigrants returned generations later and, using terrorist tactics, managed to oust the occupying power (that would be us) and promptly resorted to military power to expand their territory.

Israel is, religion aside, little more than a European colony in the middle-east - resented by all in the middle-east (hardly a surprise). The Palestinians blame western powers for the situation - partly because they supported and continue to support the state of Israel, but also due to a much older tradition of mistrust and hatred dating back to the crusades.

To us in England the Israelis' Jewishness differentiates us from them - to the Palestinians we and the Israelis are pretty much the same.

Is there a solution? Apart from the obliteration of one side or the other it is difficult to see one - it's most definitely an issue where pessimism does not seem misplaced.
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newres
post Jul 24 2014, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 24 2014, 07:22 PM) *
The Israelis have occupied most of Palestine, and are viewed by the locals as little more than the latest version of the crusades - yet another western invasion of their homeland. Of course the Israelis claim they were given this land by God (kicking out the earlier Palestinians in the process) - many of them later left, but not all. Some converted to Islam and stayed - today we would call them Palestinians. The emigrants returned generations later and, using terrorist tactics, managed to oust the occupying power (that would be us) and promptly resorted to military power to expand their territory.

Israel is, religion aside, little more than a European colony in the middle-east - resented by all in the middle-east (hardly a surprise). The Palestinians blame western powers for the situation - partly because they supported and continue to support the state of Israel, but also due to a much older tradition of mistrust and hatred dating back to the crusades.

To us in England the Israelis' Jewishness differentiates us from them - to the Palestinians we and the Israelis are pretty much the same.

Is there a solution? Apart from the obliteration of one side or the other it is difficult to see one - it's most definitely an issue where pessimism does not seem misplaced.

In my opinion the US is the problem. As long as they arm & finance Israel, there will never be a solution. The Israelis are using dart cluster bombs against civilians.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/...-shells-in-gaza
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 24 2014, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 24 2014, 07:22 PM) *
The Israelis have occupied most of Palestine, and are viewed by the locals as little more than the latest version of the crusades - yet another western invasion of their homeland. Of course the Israelis claim they were given this land by God (kicking out the earlier Palestinians in the process) - many of them later left, but not all. Some converted to Islam and stayed - today we would call them Palestinians. The emigrants returned generations later and, using terrorist tactics, managed to oust the occupying power (that would be us) and promptly resorted to military power to expand their territory.

Israel is, religion aside, little more than a European colony in the middle-east - resented by all in the middle-east (hardly a surprise). The Palestinians blame western powers for the situation - partly because they supported and continue to support the state of Israel, but also due to a much older tradition of mistrust and hatred dating back to the crusades.

To us in England the Israelis' Jewishness differentiates us from them - to the Palestinians we and the Israelis are pretty much the same.

Is there a solution? Apart from the obliteration of one side or the other it is difficult to see one - it's most definitely an issue where pessimism does not seem misplaced.

You've described Zionists, but few Israelis have any time at all for Zionism. I don't claim any great personal experience but I have visited the country and worked for a year or so for an Israeli company and it gave me something of an insight into Jewish Israelis that wasn't at all what I expected.

My sympathies are with Israel, though the suffering on both sides is clearly grievous, and I think the best hope for peace in the region would be for the international Muslim community to put pressure on Hamas to recognise the state of Israel and abandon all non-peaceful means of protest.


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blackdog
post Jul 24 2014, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 24 2014, 07:55 PM) *
You've described Zionists, but few Israelis have any time at all for Zionism.

Are they ready to leave Israel/Palestine then? Zionism is all but gone, once the state of Israel was established it was virtually redundant. However, I don't see a huge popular movement in Israel to stop the continual expansion of the state, to prevent the neverending settlement of Palestinian areas.

Sure there are Israelis who want peace, who want to live peacefully with their Palestinian neighbours. There is probably a sizeable minority against the settlements etc - but I've yet to meet an Israeli who thinks they should all pack up and leave.

I too have sympathy for the Israelis, most of them were born there and see it as home; the generation who lived with the Holocaust, and who created the state are dying out leaving an awful mess behind them.

I just can't see how the Palestinians and other middle-eastern states can ever accept the presence of a western colony on their land. And I can't see how Israelis can ever give up their state.
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 24 2014, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 24 2014, 08:21 PM) *
Are they ready to leave Israel/Palestine then? Zionism is all but gone, once the state of Israel was established it was virtually redundant. However, I don't see a huge popular movement in Israel to stop the continual expansion of the state, to prevent the neverending settlement of Palestinian areas.

Sure there are Israelis who want peace, who want to live peacefully with their Palestinian neighbours. There is probably a sizeable minority against the settlements etc - but I've yet to meet an Israeli who thinks they should all pack up and leave.

I too have sympathy for the Israelis, most of them were born there and see it as home; the generation who lived with the Holocaust, and who created the state are dying out leaving an awful mess behind them.

I just can't see how the Palestinians and other middle-eastern states can ever accept the presence of a western colony on their land. And I can't see how Israelis can ever give up their state.

I can't give you a good answer to any of that, but I would say again that I believe the best hope for peace is for Hamas to recognize the state of Israel and lay down its arms.


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Turin Machine
post Jul 24 2014, 08:39 PM
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Which they won't do. If your children were to be killed in a school by a white phosphorus round,would that make you sit down for a cosy chat, or would you say "an eye for an eye". Know what I'd do.


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newres
post Jul 25 2014, 06:19 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 24 2014, 08:35 PM) *
I can't give you a good answer to any of that, but I would say again that I believe the best hope for peace is for Hamas to recognize the state of Israel and lay down its arms.

Totally surrender to a murderous squatting regime founded on terror? rolleyes.gif

Your naïveté knows no bounds.
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Ruwan Uduwerage-...
post Jul 25 2014, 09:23 AM
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Mahatma Gandhi is often attributed for the saying “An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind”. Whoever said it is not of impotence really, but the sentiment of it is surely is a universal truth? The blame game in my opinion merely supports the use of further violence for some. Should not we be promoting peace?

Taking sides is actually unhealthy given the fact that it merely leads to a spiral of death.

I question whether we have learnt anything from history for we seem doomed to repeat the mistakes and perpetuate barbarity.

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I believe the best hope for peace is for Hamas to recognise the state of Israel and lay down its arms.


Perhaps the other option is for both sides to lay down their arms and seek a peaceful resolution, which some will see as naïve, but frankly what is the option, more years of deaths?

As for which side are terrorists, according to John Richard Thackrah who has researched and written widely about terrorism one definition is that “terrorism is an organised system of extreme and violent intimidation to create instability within democracies” and that “terrorists seek to launch indiscriminate and unpredictable attacks” to change the politico-economic balance” Thackrah, J. R. (1987).

With this definition in mind, and there are countless more, BOTH sides appear to have and are committing acts of terrorism, and to make it worse it is state sponsored on both sides.

Peace is the only option!

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Andy Capp
post Jul 25 2014, 10:20 AM
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All that is true, but futile.

Both sides need a tangible and valuable reason to stop, and there isn't one yet. Israel are entitled to take steps to defend themselves from rocket attacks; however, we also know that Israel are guilty of illegal activity too, but what country isn't.

The problem as I see it, is if Israel stop retaliating, the baiting from Hamas doesn't stop, and Hamas are vowed to remove the state of Israel. Not handy.
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blackdog
post Jul 25 2014, 10:49 AM
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QUOTE (Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera @ Jul 25 2014, 10:23 AM) *
As for which side are terrorists, according to John Richard Thackrah who has researched and written widely about terrorism one definition is that “terrorism is an organised system of extreme and violent intimidation to create instability within democracies” and that “terrorists seek to launch indiscriminate and unpredictable attacks” to change the politico-economic balance” Thackrah, J. R. (1987).

I have seen no evidence that terrorism is limited to action against democracies, but the second part of the definition is straightforward enough.

Peace in Palestine/Israel would require both sides to move massively from their current stances - Palesitinians don't really accept that Israel has any right to exist and the Israelis don't seem able to see that lands they have invaded don't necessarily belong to them forever.

Perhaps the solution is actually a single state one - democratically ruled, with Palestinians having the same voting rights as the Israelis - possibly with a Northern Ireland power-sharing system. They also need to resolve the land issues either by returning them to the families they were taken from or by properly compensating those families and allowing refugees to return home. My hope in suggesting this is that Israelis and Palestinians are more likely to adjust to each others presence by working together than by continuing to glare at each other across fences.

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On the edge
post Jul 25 2014, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 25 2014, 11:49 AM) *
I have seen no evidence that terrorism is limited to action against democracies, but the second part of the definition is straightforward enough.

Peace in Palestine/Israel would require both sides to move massively from their current stances - Palesitinians don't really accept that Israel has any right to exist and the Israelis don't seem able to see that lands they have invaded don't necessarily belong to them forever.

Perhaps the solution is actually a single state one - democratically ruled, with Palestinians having the same voting rights as the Israelis - possibly with a Northern Ireland power-sharing system. They also need to resolve the land issues either by returning them to the families they were taken from or by properly compensating those families and allowing refugees to return home. My hope in suggesting this is that Israelis and Palestinians are more likely to adjust to each others presence by working together than by continuing to glare at each other across fences.


Can't disagree with your suggested solution. I suppose we also need to realise that will take a long time and a lot of frustration, indeed exactly like NI


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MontyPython
post Jul 25 2014, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 25 2014, 11:49 AM) *
I have seen no evidence that terrorism is limited to action against democracies, .....


Maybe those non-democratically elected are seen as more of a legitimate target by the originator of the quote.

Innocent civilians get killed or injured in either case.
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Ciderdrinker
post Aug 1 2014, 10:40 AM
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I think most people struggle to understand the history, I have found this little youtube video which explains the recent history. Might be a little bias.

http://youtu.be/_4KBz8R2hN4
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JeffG
post Aug 1 2014, 11:05 AM
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The main thing that puzzles me, and which is never discussed or questioned: if Gaza is totally blockaded by land, sea and air, where do the rockets come from? Hamas can't have an infinite supply in stock, or materials to manufacture them, even if they had the expertise.
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James_Trinder
post Aug 1 2014, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Aug 1 2014, 12:05 PM) *
The main thing that puzzles me, and which is never discussed or questioned: if Gaza is totally blockaded by land, sea and air, where do the rockets come from? Hamas can't have an infinite supply in stock, or materials to manufacture them, even if they had the expertise.


This is a very good point. My money is on the rockets being smuggled in from the Egyptian side though.
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JeffG
post Aug 1 2014, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE (James_Trinder @ Aug 1 2014, 12:20 PM) *
This is a very good point. My money is on the rockets being smuggled in from the Egyptian side though.

Yes, that would be the only possibility, IMO, although, having ousted the Muslim Brotherhood, the current Egyptian government is not favourably disposed towards Hamas and has (allegedly) sealed the border.

If that is in fact the case (where the rockets are coming from), then the international community should be helping Egypt plug the leaks. This is not to condone what the other side is doing, though. The Israelis seemed to be on the defensive when trying to justify their "mistakes".
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