Newbury Town Council gives the town Jack Options

[On the edge]

It happened near Newbury, and that's all that can be said for it, it was hardly something that Newbury contributed to - I imagine Newbury's good Burghers were keeping their heads down and doing their best to profit from the situation by selling their wares to both sides.

If you want a defining event in Newbury's history it was the Newbury Martyrs - "Berkshire has the honour of having received the doctrines of the Reformation as early as any part of England, and Fuller says, "Let other places give the honour to the town of Newbury, because it started first in the race of the reformed religion."" See here. For a brief moment in the town's history Newbury was leading the land in free-thinking - now that is something to celebrate, only it's hardly something the establishment are going to want to promote.

I wonder in these less physical times for dissenters the Town Council see any irony with regard to still recent events?

[Simon Kirby]

Yes, and to be ripped off:-

The famous in at Speenhamland
Stands just below the hill
May well be called the Pelican
From its enormous bill

Oh well, at least Tax Credits were invented here!

[Andy Capp]

It happened near Newbury, and that's all that can be said for it, it was hardly something that Newbury contributed to - I imagine Newbury's good Burghers were keeping their heads down and doing their best to profit from the situation by selling their wares to both sides.

The contribution argument is irrelevant. The event took place here. The battle line went from somewhere near your old allotment all the way to somewhere near Kingsbridge Road. It was the first time the Roylist army couldn't defeat the parliament army, which meant it was able to pass the royalists and fortify London's defences.

If you want a defining event in Newbury's history it was the Newbury Martyrs - "Berkshire has the honour of having received the doctrines of the Reformation as early as any part of England, and Fuller says, "Let other places give the honour to the town of Newbury, because it started first in the race of the reformed religion."" See here. For a brief moment in the town's history Newbury was leading the land in free-thinking - now that is something to celebrate, only it's hardly something the establishment are going to want to promote.

There is a tribute stone for martyrs, mind you, the Reformation was not without its own cruelty and what we would now call inhuman acts. It would also be a distortion to say it was a leading exponent of free-thinking.

[Andy Capp]

Idi Amin was simply applying the law as it stood, and he was of course supported in his despotism by the British, so why not a statue to him if we're going to venerate immolants?

A cursory search on the Internet would quickly expose your comment as verging on the repugnant. I think you are allowing your hatred of the town council to distort you own judgment.

[Simon Kirby]

A cursory search on the Internet would quickly expose your comment as verging on the repugnant. I think you are allowing your hatred of the town council to distort you own judgment.

Idi Amin was a butcher, but then Winchcombe's burning to death of the Newbury Martyrs because they said their sky fairy disagrees with his sky fairy is about as depraved as it is possible to be - and you are seriously telling me that Winchcombe is a right and proper person to venerate with a bronze statue because he was only following orders and he was after all immensely rich and well connected? I suggest you question your own judgement.

[Simon Kirby]

The contribution argument is irrelevant. The event took place here. The battle line went from somewhere near your old allotment all the way to somewhere near Kingsbridge Road. It was the first time the Roylist army couldn't defeat the parliament army, which meant it was able to pass the royalists and fortify London's defences.

Yes, it was a significant development in the civil war, but to co-opt it as some defining moment for the shop keepers and wool merchants of a timid parochial backwater is laughable.

There is a tribute stone for martyrs, mind you, the Reformation was not without its own cruelty and what we would now call inhuman acts. It would also be a distortion to say it was a leading exponent of free-thinking.

For sure, there was religious bigotry on all sides, but the Newbury Martyrs found something in themselves to challenge orthodoxy in a town where appeasing the establishment was all that anyone had ever known, and that was a defining moment and something worth celebrating.

[Andy Capp]

Simon, I see a dishonesty in your recent posts, including strawman arguments, that make me question the wisdom of my support of your struggle with the authorities. Put blunt, it seems you are prepared to wildly distort facts to suit your argument.

[On the edge]

I can simply see frustration.

As to the statue, to be honest, even before this discussion I was very uncomfortable with the idea and it is to do with the martyrs. Their trial and its outcome have left a stain on Newbury and is little formally remembered.

Here we had a small group of people with very strong beliefs. They weren't advocating violence, or even stirring insurrection, simply challenging the establishment thinking.

On the tribunal, a couple 'felt sorry' for them; one bring the subject of the statue. They did try to get them to recant or in effect, do a John Prescott and cross their fingers when taking the loyal oath. For me, this 'feeling sorry' demonstrates that although justice might be served, what was happening was not righteous.

In the case of those burnt, particularly following the offers if they'd recanted, it was a matter of faith; this wasn't about religion. As Tony Benn once said, religion is something you'd kill for, but faith is what you die for.

In other words, John Winchcombe and his peers just stood by and let it happen. Ironically, that sums up a lot of what's wrong today. Thus for me, a statue of the martyrs would be a far more honourable memorial.

[Andy Capp]

Sadly that isn't what the record shows. They in effect died for religion; they insulted the Pope and the Catholic Church which at the time was heresy, punishable by death. Mr Winchcombe sat in council and decided they were guilty, which they were, the punishment was preordained.

But, it is futile and wrong to judge by modern standards, they were ignorant people back then.

Despite Simon's unjust and unfair comments, I too see the value in a Martyr's memorial. I am also cynical about installing a statue now, after all this time, other than a council's wish to create something interesting for the tourists. Another vanity project as it were. But then again, isn't that what most statues are about.

[Turin Machine]

Err, time for me to either get sneered at or ignored but, quite like the idea of a statue of an American airman. They were part of Newbury life for a good while and it's due in part to the sacrifice of a good many of them that we are free to even have these discussions today.

[On the edge]

Sadly that isn't what the record shows. They in effect died for religion; they insulted the Pope and the Catholic Church which at the time was heresy, punishable by death. Mr Winchcombe decided they were guilty, which they were, the punishment was preordained.

But, it is futile and wrong to judge by modern standards, they were ignorant people back then.

Despite Simon's unjust and unfair comments, I too see the value in a Martyr's memorial. I am also cynical about installing a statue now, after all this time, other than a council's wish to create something interesting for the tourists. Another vanity project as it were. But then again, isn't that what most statues are about.

I suppose it all comes down to the interpretation of words, it was religion that killed them to be sure; but they died for their faith. They had ample opportunity to recant, indeed deny their belief and simply carry on as before. No one would have been any the wiser.

Yes, the situation at the time was very different. It's often quite illuminating to look at past events with the full benefit of hindsight. In this case, we can now see the reformation was simply a human power struggle, arguably between factions of the same 'party'. Today's bickering about who are the real socialists in the Labour Party give some inkling of the turmoil; scale that up and you get physical conflict.

I certainly agree with your view on statues generally, still as a friend of mine who lived in Westminster used to say, they do keep the dog amused!

[newres]

Err, time for me to either get sneered at or ignored but, quite like the idea of a statue of an American airman. They were part of Newbury life for a good while and it's due in part to the sacrifice of a good many of them that we are free to even have these discussions today.

Actually if we had to have, Eisenhower might be apt. That said, I think Stalin might do too as it was the USSR that deserve most credit for defeating Hitler. But other than inspiring WBC he doesn't have a Newbury connection.

[Cognosco]

A Bronze statue to an ancient Newburian is just what is needed in these times of austerity, after all the cuts to essential services etc. the Council needs somehow to use up the gains from these cuts don't they?

[je suis Charlie]

Actually if we had to have, Eisenhower might be apt. That said, I think Stalin might do too as it was the USSR that deserve most credit for defeating Hitler. But other than inspiring WBC he doesn't have a Newbury connection.

But his spirit lives on in Simon.

[On the edge]

Actually if we had to have, Eisenhower might be apt. That said, I think Stalin might do too as it was the USSR that deserve most credit for defeating Hitler. But other than inspiring WBC he doesn't have a Newbury connection.

Yes, the Airbase! Why not go really popular, Glenn Miller? If we went hi-tec, the statue could be animated and inserting 50p in a slot could make it move to taped music. That would pull 'em in.

A bolt on to the Downton tours; after the the abbey, a quick trip to the control tower, then into town for tea and a chance to see dancing boy. Pay gate on the Wharf bogs and we'll be quids in.

[On the edge]

Actually if we had to have, Eisenhower might be apt. That said, I think Stalin might do too as it was the USSR that deserve most credit for defeating Hitler. But other than inspiring WBC he doesn't have a Newbury connection.

Yes, the Airbase! Why not go really popular, Glenn Miller? If we went hi-tec, the statue could be animated and inserting 50p in a slot could make it move to taped music. That would pull 'em in.

A bolt on to the Downton tours; after the the abbey, a quick trip to the control tower, then into town for tea and a chance to see dancing boy. Pay gate on the Wharf bogs and we'll be quids in.

[Turin Machine]

Actually if we had to have, Eisenhower might be apt. That said, I think Stalin might do too as it was the USSR that deserve most credit for defeating Hitler. But other than inspiring WBC he doesn't have a Newbury connection.

Oh, right, so Mr Winchcome of this parish is a no no but a man who directly caused the death of 20million of his own citizens might be eligible? Do tell.

[Simon Kirby]

Oh, right, so Mr Winchcome of this parish is a no no but a man who directly caused the death of 20million of his own citizens might be eligible? Do tell.

It was your suggestion to commemorate the US airmen and a statue of Joe is no less appropriate.

[newres]

Oh, right, so Mr Winchcome of this parish is a no no but a man who directly caused the death of 20million of his own citizens might be eligible? Do tell.

I think you're getting confused.

[je suis Charlie]

It was your suggestion to commemorate the US airmen and a statue of Joe is no less appropriate.

O Rly? Can u explain?