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> Hydrogen Fuel Supplies?
Biker1
post Dec 17 2016, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Dec 17 2016, 08:36 AM) *
Fewer? wink.gif

Conceded!! tongue.gif
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je suis Charlie
post Dec 17 2016, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 15 2016, 10:44 AM) *
From BBC News:

Unless that's Paris, Texas etc., I don't see the US involved here. Anyway, when Trump takes office he is going to actively promote more use of coal as a fuel, or so he says. He is hardly likely to "demonise" diesel - after all, it's produced by his oil baron friends.

This all started when VW fudged a cheat code into the ecu software to pass emissions control in California, before that no one worried a jot. They may well "demonise" diesel, they always have. Their aim is to sell petrol, lots of it. Efficient diesel is not on the oil barons agenda mate.
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Turin Machine
post Dec 17 2016, 07:12 PM
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Gadzooks sirrah, thou speaketh most wisely!
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Turin Machine
post Dec 17 2016, 07:14 PM
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Sorry about that, but I had a glass of Malmsey at luncheon and been channelling Sir John Falstaff all afternoon.!!
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JeffG
post Dec 17 2016, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Dec 17 2016, 07:12 PM) *
Gadzooks sirrah, thou speaketh most wisely!

Trying to outdo Andy Capp here: speakest?
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On the edge
post Dec 17 2016, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Dec 17 2016, 01:17 PM) *
This all started when VW fudged a cheat code into the ecu software to pass emissions control in California, before that no one worried a jot. They may well "demonise" diesel, they always have. Their aim is to sell petrol, lots of it. Efficient diesel is not on the oil barons agenda mate.


They actually need to balance petrol and diesel sales or we'll just end up with a massive store of unusable fuel. If you are looking for an American conspiracy, look at car manufacturers, Ford and GM certainly don't want VW.


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Turin Machine
post Dec 17 2016, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 17 2016, 08:50 PM) *
Trying to outdo Andy Capp here: speakest?

Pah! A pox on your knavish tongue sirrah!
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On the edge
post Dec 18 2016, 07:38 AM
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It's all about perceptions. The make up to one side, imagine if we'd started out using hydrogen to fuel our transport. If some genius came along and showed us petrol, we'd not be inclined to use it. Simplistically, hydrogen burns up and away, whereas petrol burns spreads and sticks.


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Rdg
post Dec 19 2016, 10:14 AM
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The thing is that every barrel of crude that comes out of the ground is split into different types of hydrocarbon (factions) form the heaviest Tar to the gaseous bits, whilst there is differences in the make up of different crudes (Brent crude has a lot of lighter factions and alberta oil shales a lot of the heavier) they are all mixes - the reason diesel became comparatively more expensive per litre than petrol (it used to be cheaper) was because of supply and demand (we bought lots more diesel cars) it came back to parity with the worldwide reduction in transportation due to the economic slump. If you banned diesel cars completely then the oil companies (refinery part) would have to charge more for the petrol element to make the same profit out of each barrel they refine.

Diesel cars are also on average a lot more efficient per mile than a petrol as well as pumping out less naties per litre burnt - Although I will admit PM10'S from worn diesels are very bad for lungs.

Hydrogen cars will compete with agriculture for Hydrogen as EVERY farm in the uk and I would guess europe uses Ammonia based fertilizers; that ammonia is made by reacting Nitrogen in the atmosphere with Hydrogen N2 + 3H2 => 2NH3, if you increase transportation use of hydrogen you will push up food prices as farmers will have to pay more for fertilizer (a major input cost). All of these uses of hydrocarbons are interconnected - if you want to make it last we need to get away from hydrocarbon based transport and that is NOT hydrogen fuel cells until you can generate the H2 by splitting water using non hydrocarbon generated electricity or you are robbing peter to pay paul

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On the edge
post Dec 19 2016, 10:42 AM
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There was a strong view back in the mid 70's that if we ought to utilize nuclear power to meet most of the daytime load and then use that same capacity to generate hydrogen gas at night. Its not easy, economic or efficient to 'switch out' nuclear generating plant as load drops. The very idea seemed to scare; but its feasible and but for the wetware could be as safe as anything else we do.


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JeffG
post Dec 19 2016, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE (Rdg @ Dec 19 2016, 10:14 AM) *
Hydrogen cars will compete with agriculture for Hydrogen as EVERY farm in the uk and I would guess europe uses Ammonia based fertilizers; that ammonia is made by reacting Nitrogen in the atmosphere with Hydrogen N2 + 3H2 => 2NH3,

That sent me off to Google and this site because I thought Ammonia/Ammonium was NH4.

According to that site, NH3 is a toxic gas, and is the unionised form of NH4. (Who'd have thought there was a union for ammonia? wink.gif)
NH4 is a non-toxic salt and is the ionised form of ammonia.

I'm guessing that it's NH4 that is used to make fertilisers, but I am happy to be corrected.
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Rdg
post Dec 19 2016, 12:00 PM
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I got it from this site while trying to find evidence of my knowledge that h2 is used for fertilizer - maybe it is a precursor compound

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/...ap-natural-gas/
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blackdog
post Dec 19 2016, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 19 2016, 11:16 AM) *
That sent me off to Google and this site because I thought Ammonia/Ammonium was NH4.

According to that site, NH3 is a toxic gas, and is the unionised form of NH4. (Who'd have thought there was a union for ammonia? wink.gif)
NH4 is a non-toxic salt and is the ionised form of ammonia.

I'm guessing that it's NH4 that is used to make fertilisers, but I am happy to be corrected.

Surely Ammonia is NH4 and Ammonium is NH3. Ammonium is ionised and needs to bond to form anything stable (eg to H for Ammonia, or NO3 for the fertiliser ammonium nitrate that is so useful for bomb making)
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Simon Kirby
post Dec 20 2016, 07:34 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Dec 19 2016, 07:40 PM) *
Surely Ammonia is NH4 and Ammonium is NH3. Ammonium is ionised and needs to bond to form anything stable (eg to H for Ammonia, or NO3 for the fertiliser ammonium nitrate that is so useful for bomb making)

Other way round. NH3 is ammonia, NH4+ is the ammonium ion.


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Biker1
post Dec 23 2016, 10:25 AM
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You can get your hydrogen car and build your wind farms but the general concencus is "if it inconveniences me then I don't give a ****!"
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On the edge
post Dec 23 2016, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Dec 23 2016, 10:25 AM) *
You can get your hydrogen car and build your wind farms but the general concencus is "if it inconveniences me then I don't give a ****!"


Yes, you are quite right, but it's worth considering why. Climate change, fossil fuel depletion, damage by noxious gas and so on, just how true is the information we' ve been fed? Is it as true as what the railway CEO had just said about improving our railways over Christmas? Is it as true as the need for the next range of local government cuts and so on and on and on. Little wonder then, that 'the people' are now taking no notice at all. As certain economists are prone to point out, in the long term we are all dead. So then Biker, just enjoy what you may and have a happy Christmas in case there is a new year.


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Turin Machine
post Dec 23 2016, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Dec 23 2016, 02:59 PM) *
Yes, you are quite right, but it's worth considering why. Climate change, fossil fuel depletion, damage by noxious gas and so on, just how true is the information we' ve been fed? Is it as true as what the railway CEO had just said about improving our railways over Christmas? Is it as true as the need for the next range of local government cuts and so on and on and on. Little wonder then, that 'the people' are now taking no notice at all. As certain economists are prone to point out, in the long term we are all dead. So then Biker, just enjoy what you may and have a happy Christmas in case there is a new year.

Why worry? the next ice age will wipe us out anyway, as I always say, leave it to the youngsters to sort out, apparently they know everything so it makes sense.
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On the edge
post Dec 23 2016, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Dec 23 2016, 04:25 PM) *
Why worry? the next ice age will wipe us out anyway, as I always say, leave it to the youngsters to sort out, apparently they know everything so it makes sense.


Quite; and perhaps we will see an end to all this bikes is best, and five different dustbins nonsense.


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Biker1
post Jan 19 2017, 08:42 AM
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Just to ad more "doom and gloom" as they say into the discussion....
Here is a MUCH bigger threat to the future than the likes of a deluded wealthy businessman becoming leader of the free world.
Something which seems to be largely ignored ............that is until it's too late! sad.gif
Electric cars? wind farms? Wast of time when our environment is being destroyed at it's current rate.
(Oh and thanks OTE, had a good Christmas and my New Year has been reasonably happy so far! tongue.gif )
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Turin Machine
post Jan 19 2017, 09:29 AM
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I'm afraid that when people whinge on about saving the planet what they really mean is "I'm trying to make sure humanity is safe" if people really want to 'save the world' (makes airwagging gesture) the best way would be if everyone simply walked into the sea. Our very existence on this planet is killing it.
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