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> Hydrogen Fuel Supplies?
Blake
post Dec 13 2016, 08:28 PM
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As part of my overall commitment to reducing my carbon footprint and moving evermore toward living sustainably, I am looking to buy a hydrogen-powered car like a Toyota Mirai.

Does anyone know any gas stations in West Berkshire that currently supply hydrogen to the consumer?
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Andy Capp
post Dec 13 2016, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Dec 13 2016, 08:28 PM) *
As part of my overall commitment to reducing my carbon footprint and moving evermore toward living sustainably, I am looking to buy a hydrogen-powered car like a Toyota Mirai.

Does anyone know any gas stations in West Berkshire that currently supply hydrogen to the consumer?

I think the nearest is Honda in Swindon.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry...station-swindon

http://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2S...mp;StationID=-1

"There are only eight hydrogen filling stations open to the public right now. Most of are in the south of the UK, with three in the London area (at Hendon, Teddington and Heathrow airport), another at Honda's factory in Swindon, Wiltshire, and a fourth in Port Talbot in south Wales."

However, bear in mind, these cars won't do much to reduce your carbon footprint at the moment.

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/...-fuel-cell-cars
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spartacus
post Dec 14 2016, 12:13 AM
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Brave you. We need pioneers such as you to Beta test this technology for us all. Personally, the idea of paying 65k on a car is ridiculous. Especially when you are in effect carrying a blast bomb in the boot with 5kg of hydrogen stored in a tank at a pressure of 10,000psi. Still, if it wasn't for the likes of you we'd still be riding round on horses.
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Blake
post Dec 14 2016, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Dec 14 2016, 12:13 AM) *
Brave you. We need pioneers such as you to Beta test this technology for us all. Personally, the idea of paying 65k on a car is ridiculous. Especially when you are in effect carrying a blast bomb in the boot with 5kg of hydrogen stored in a tank at a pressure of 10,000psi. Still, if it wasn't for the likes of you we'd still be riding round on horses.


If Toyota has perfected it, we really need not worry.
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2016, 09:15 AM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Dec 14 2016, 08:47 AM) *
If Toyota has perfected it, we really need not worry.

We'll keep our eyes on the local news to see if they have! However, like I said earlier, it seems this technology isn't eco friendly yet.
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Biker1
post Dec 14 2016, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Dec 13 2016, 10:28 PM) *
As part of my overall commitment to reducing my carbon footprint and moving evermore toward living sustainably, I am looking to buy a hydrogen-powered car like a Toyota Mirai.

Does anyone know any gas stations in West Berkshire that currently supply hydrogen to the consumer?

Good for you if that's what it will do but can someone explain how running on hydrogen reduces ones "carbon footprint".
Also wouldn't be keen on driving around with one of the most volatile gases (in liquid form) in the back!.
No worse maybe than driving around with a volatile liquid between ones legs. (Bike!).
Any answers?
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JeffG
post Dec 14 2016, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Dec 14 2016, 09:47 AM) *
Good for you if that's what it will do but can someone explain how running on hydrogen reduces ones "carbon footprint".

Petrol and Diesel are hydrocarbons and produce all sorts of noxious gases as well as CO.

Burning Hydrogen just produces water (actually steam):

2H + O = 2HO

(Superscripts should be subscripts of course, but I couldn't find them.)
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Berkshirelad
post Dec 14 2016, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 14 2016, 11:18 AM) *
Petrol and Diesel are hydrocarbons and produce all sorts of noxious gases as well as CO.

Burning Hydrogen just produces water (actually steam):

2H + O = 2HO

(Superscripts should be subscripts of course, but I couldn't find them.)


However, it takes a fair amount of 'dirty' electricity to separate the hydrogen out in the first place.

Mind you, this could be achieved by solar or wind power as it doesn't need to be a constant supply

..and the first super/subscript 2 shouldn't be there. Hydrogen exists as single molecules

4H + O2 = 2H2O
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Turin Machine
post Dec 14 2016, 12:04 PM
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Or use a diesel.
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JeffG
post Dec 14 2016, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE (Berkshirelad @ Dec 14 2016, 11:37 AM) *
..and the first super/subscript 2 shouldn't be there. Hydrogen exists as single molecules

4H + O2 = 2H2O

Since when? (And a single atom isn't a molecule.)

QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Dec 14 2016, 12:04 PM) *
Or use a diesel.

And kill people as well as damaging the environment?
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2016, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 14 2016, 11:18 AM) *
Petrol and Diesel are hydrocarbons and produce all sorts of noxious gases as well as CO.

Burning Hydrogen just produces water (actually steam):

2H + O = 2HO

(Superscripts should be subscripts of course, but I couldn't find them.)

According to this article, the electricity required for Hydrogen production is environmentally more destructive than running a car.

"A bigger challenge presents itself when you look at how hydrogen fuel is produced in the first place. Despite its abundance within the universe, hydrogen makes up just one part-per-million of our atmosphere. Theres a huge amount of hydrogen on the surface of the planet, but the majority of this exists in chemical compounds such as water and ironically crude oil.

That means its necessary to produce hydrogen fuel industrially and, in the commercial world, as much as 95% of all hydrogen is produced by burning fossil fuels.

This leads to a false environmental economy: for a hydrogen fuel cell car to work its necessary to take oil, gas or coal, burn them to produce hydrogen, store that hydrogen, then use it to charge a battery, which, finally, powers the car.

Until large-scale hydrogen production becomes environmentally friendly, it makes more sense to either: burn petrol or diesel directly to power the car or use electricity straight from the grid to charge an electric cars batteries, rather than store the energy as hydrogen in between. The majority of our electricity is still generated by burning fossil fuels but, where cars are concerned, this is actually less environmentally harmful and energy intensive than industrially producing hydrogen is"




http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/...-fuel-cell-cars
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2016, 12:46 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 14 2016, 12:31 PM) *
Since when? (And a single atom isn't a molecule.)

I read that Hydrogen gas (H2) is a molecule.

QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 14 2016, 12:31 PM) *
And kill people as well as damaging the environment?

Diesel has a smaller carbon footprint than Hydrogen and petrol cars (but has other hazardous waste of course).

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Turin Machine
post Dec 14 2016, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 14 2016, 01:31 PM) *
And kill people as well as damaging the environment?

Said he wanted to reduce carbon footprint, diesel does that.
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JeffG
post Dec 14 2016, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Dec 14 2016, 12:46 PM) *
I read that Hydrogen gas (H2) is a molecule.

Yes it is. It's two atoms bonded together as a molecule. I was just saying that a single atom isn't a molecule (which is what BerkshireLad said). I only did O level Chemistry, so I'm no expert! However...

On the subject of diesel, carbon footprint or not, it's far more dangerous to humans than petrol - otherwise why would cities be looking to ban it? Hard to achieve in Central London of course, since most of the traffic is buses and taxis.

I read that in Delhi which suffers from major smogs, they are proposing to use retired jet engines mounted on trailers next to coal-fired power stations to blow the gases into the upper atmosphere. Kind of misses the point, I think!
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Biker1
post Dec 14 2016, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Dec 14 2016, 02:44 PM) *
According to this article, the electricity required for Hydrogen production is environmentally more destructive than running a car.

"A bigger challenge presents itself when you look at how hydrogen fuel is produced in the first place. Despite its abundance within the universe, hydrogen makes up just one part-per-million of our atmosphere. Theres a huge amount of hydrogen on the surface of the planet, but the majority of this exists in chemical compounds such as water and ironically crude oil.

That means its necessary to produce hydrogen fuel industrially and, in the commercial world, as much as 95% of all hydrogen is produced by burning fossil fuels.

This leads to a false environmental economy: for a hydrogen fuel cell car to work its necessary to take oil, gas or coal, burn them to produce hydrogen, store that hydrogen, then use it to charge a battery, which, finally, powers the car.

Until large-scale hydrogen production becomes environmentally friendly, it makes more sense to either: burn petrol or diesel directly to power the car or use electricity straight from the grid to charge an electric cars batteries, rather than store the energy as hydrogen in between. The majority of our electricity is still generated by burning fossil fuels but, where cars are concerned, this is actually less environmentally harmful and energy intensive than industrially producing hydrogen is"




http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/...-fuel-cell-cars

That's what I imagined might be the case hence my question.
No matter what source of energy we use there is always a price to pay for the environment.
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Simon Kirby
post Dec 14 2016, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (Berkshirelad @ Dec 14 2016, 11:37 AM) *
However, it takes a fair amount of 'dirty' electricity to separate the hydrogen out in the first place.

Mind you, this could be achieved by solar or wind power as it doesn't need to be a constant supply

..and the first super/subscript 2 shouldn't be there. Hydrogen exists as single molecules

4H + O2 = 2H2O

Hydrogen is so reactive that it dimerises readily as a gas and exists almost exclusively as H2 molecules.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Turin Machine
post Dec 14 2016, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Dec 14 2016, 02:27 PM) *
On the subject of diesel, carbon footprint or not, it's far more dangerous to humans than petrol - otherwise why would cities be looking to ban it?

If you or indeed any right minded government was truly interested in the longevity of its population they would ban tobacco, alcohol and fast food. Everything else pails into insignificance. It beggars belief that this whole demonization of diesel originates from a country whose number one priority seems to be to maintain the right to own as many guns as possible and then go on the rampage with them.

"Can we buy nuclear tipped, armour piercing ammo?". "sure why not, its in the Constitution!"

Utter madness and hypocrisy in equal proportion! Makes I laff.
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Blake
post Dec 14 2016, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Dec 14 2016, 12:44 PM) *
According to this article, the electricity required for Hydrogen production is environmentally more destructive than running a car.

"A bigger challenge presents itself when you look at how hydrogen fuel is produced in the first place. Despite its abundance within the universe, hydrogen makes up just one part-per-million of our atmosphere. Theres a huge amount of hydrogen on the surface of the planet, but the majority of this exists in chemical compounds such as water and ironically crude oil.

That means its necessary to produce hydrogen fuel industrially and, in the commercial world, as much as 95% of all hydrogen is produced by burning fossil fuels.

This leads to a false environmental economy: for a hydrogen fuel cell car to work its necessary to take oil, gas or coal, burn them to produce hydrogen, store that hydrogen, then use it to charge a battery, which, finally, powers the car.

Until large-scale hydrogen production becomes environmentally friendly, it makes more sense to either: burn petrol or diesel directly to power the car or use electricity straight from the grid to charge an electric cars batteries, rather than store the energy as hydrogen in between. The majority of our electricity is still generated by burning fossil fuels but, where cars are concerned, this is actually less environmentally harmful and energy intensive than industrially producing hydrogen is"




http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/...-fuel-cell-cars


You say that, but we are gradually phasing out dirty, fossil fuels. With the huge amount of electricity now being generated by wind turbines and solar cells, hydrogen becomes a very desirable fuel and really is the answer to our (green) prayers. Bring it on!
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Andy Capp
post Dec 14 2016, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Dec 14 2016, 06:20 PM) *
You say that, but we are gradually phasing out dirty, fossil fuels. With the huge amount of electricity now being generated by wind turbines and solar cells, hydrogen becomes a very desirable fuel and really is the answer to our (green) prayers. Bring it on!

Those are not my words; however, the point is, ~95% of hydrogen gas is manufactured with lecky manufactured by burning fossil fuel in a way that is more polluting than driving combustion engined cars.
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Biker1
post Dec 14 2016, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Dec 14 2016, 08:20 PM) *
You say that, but we are gradually phasing out dirty, fossil fuels. With the huge amount of electricity now being generated by wind turbines and solar cells, hydrogen becomes a very desirable fuel and really is the answer to our (green) prayers. Bring it on!

Would you like a forest of wind turbines or acres of solar panels near your house?
The amount of these needed to substitute the fossil fuel burning power generation that we currently rely on is massive!
If the wind blows or the sun shines!!
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