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> Europe - In or Out, Straw Poll for Forumisters
On the edge
post Feb 23 2017, 08:10 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Feb 23 2017, 12:34 AM) *
My understanding is that consensus doesn't make something fact. That is to say, AGW is not a science fact (or theory as they might call it), but I find it hard to believe Man is not affecting the climate. A gift from Britain to remember us by! LOL

I understand bees wouldn't fly if they flew like we thought they did, but they don't.

Modern science is only a few hundred years old, so I would imagine there's some way to go yet, but I do wonder if in 2 thousand years time we will look back and giggle at what we thought. Unless we are getting thicker of course!


Well, that last comment would certainly go some way to prove the 'wave theory'. In population segment terms indeed that may well be the case.


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Simon Kirby
post Feb 23 2017, 11:36 AM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Feb 22 2017, 11:41 PM) *
And what about the discrepancies between the predictions of the particle cold dark matter paradigm and the actual observations of galaxies? Lots of theory but little that is acceptable! Besides, many of the theoretical effects could also be resolved using modified Newtonian dynamics, no need for cdm.

Newton doesn't provide any kind of theoretical basis for cosmology. This really is where science is different from other discourse - any kind of meaningful discussion on cosmology needs to be mathematical and the maths of GR is quite beyond my capability, so whereas I can hold forth on economics and politics and the winner of the argument is decided on the effectiveness of their rhetoric science is entirely different and the argument is won by the theory that best explains the evidence, until a better explanation comes along.


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Turin Machine
post Feb 23 2017, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 23 2017, 11:36 AM) *
Newton doesn't provide any kind of theoretical basis for cosmology. This really is where science is different from other discourse - any kind of meaningful discussion on cosmology needs to be mathematical and the maths of GR is quite beyond my capability, so whereas I can hold forth on economics and politics and the winner of the argument is decided on the effectiveness of their rhetoric science is entirely different and the argument is won by the theory that best explains the evidence, until a better explanation comes along.

Newton comes to the scene because he wrote the book(as it were) on gravitational law and the mechanics thereof, Milgrom however postulated his theory to explain the fact that the velocities of stars in galaxies were observed to be larger than expected based on Newtonian mechanics.

Milgrom went on to theorise a new effective gravitational force law (sometimes referred to as "Milgrom's law") that relates the true acceleration of an object to the acceleration that would be predicted for it on the basis of Newtonian mechanics. And that is where our old chum and genius Newtonian comes into the frame, it wasn't until Zwicky came along in the early 20th century and identified what became known as 'the missing mass problem that dark, non detectable matter was put forward as a possible answer to the conundrum of an under populated universe.

All of which merely proves that not only is the Universe intimately larger than we can imagine, it's also infinately stranger as well! Hence string theory, of which I know absolutely nothing! smile.gif
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Simon Kirby
post Feb 23 2017, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Feb 23 2017, 03:40 PM) *
Newton comes to the scene because he wrote the book(as it were) on gravitational law and the mechanics thereof, Milgrom however postulated his theory to explain the fact that the velocities of stars in galaxies were observed to be larger than expected based on Newtonian mechanics.

Milgrom went on to theorise a new effective gravitational force law (sometimes referred to as "Milgrom's law") that relates the true acceleration of an object to the acceleration that would be predicted for it on the basis of Newtonian mechanics. And that is where our old chum and genius Newtonian comes into the frame, it wasn't until Zwicky came along in the early 20th century and identified what became known as 'the missing mass problem that dark, non detectable matter was put forward as a possible answer to the conundrum of an under populated universe.

All of which merely proves that not only is the Universe intimately larger than we can imagine, it's also infinately stranger as well! Hence string theory, of which I know absolutely nothing! smile.gif

Yes, gravity is an open question, but that doesn't weaken the scientific evidence in support of AGW.


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Turin Machine
post Feb 23 2017, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 23 2017, 04:37 PM) *
Yes, gravity is an open question, but that doesn't weaken the scientific evidence in support of AGW.

No, no it doesn't
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Turin Machine
post Feb 23 2017, 05:03 PM
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We must always keep an open mind so much of what we today perceive as fact would have until very recently seen us burned as witches. Neither must we rush to accept every 'fact' as absolute truth. It is of course true that mankind has accelerated climate change, accepted. However the Earths climate has always seesawed between times of extreme cold and temperate climes.we are so close to the end of the last ice age that the south of England is still rising due to the rebounding of the earth's crust after the melting of the ice. One thing that is generally accepted is that when the ice came, it came surprisingly quickly,climates do that some times, one day you're feeding wild elephants in the garden and the next those Woolly Mammoths from down the road have moved in and everyone sitting round the fire is complaining about how chilly its getting.
The earth might just be getting warmer. With a bit of help
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Simon Kirby
post Feb 24 2017, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Feb 23 2017, 05:03 PM) *
We must always keep an open mind so much of what we today perceive as fact would have until very recently seen us burned as witches. Neither must we rush to accept every 'fact' as absolute truth. It is of course true that mankind has accelerated climate change, accepted. However the Earths climate has always seesawed between times of extreme cold and temperate climes.we are so close to the end of the last ice age that the south of England is still rising due to the rebounding of the earth's crust after the melting of the ice. One thing that is generally accepted is that when the ice came, it came surprisingly quickly,climates do that some times, one day you're feeding wild elephants in the garden and the next those Woolly Mammoths from down the road have moved in and everyone sitting round the fire is complaining about how chilly its getting.
The earth might just be getting warmer. With a bit of help

Yes, I agree with all of that.

A scientist's severest critic is always themself, being open about every flaw and weakness in a result and questioning every assumption - but simultaneously be prepared to believe the correctness of the result no matter how unexpected. For example the Michelson–Morley experiment is famous because the result was the opposite of what everyone was expecting - accepted wisdom was that space was filled with a "luminiferous aether" and the experiment was designed to prove its existence, but instead it showed that there was probably no such thing, and rather than trying to fudge the result Michelson and Morley published honestly what they felt to be a failure. It was heroic science.


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Turin Machine
post Apr 21 2017, 02:57 PM
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Interestingly, it might be what happens a la belle France this weekend that will shape the future viability of the EU with eight out of the eleven candidates being anti Europe in one shape or another. If, and it's a big if, they pull out of either the euro or the EU as a whole it will put a completely different complexion on the brexit issue. Vive la France! Vive les Francais! 🇫🇷
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spartacus
post Apr 21 2017, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 21 2017, 03:57 PM) *
Interestingly, it might be what happens a la belle France this weekend that will shape the future viability of the EU with eight out of the eleven candidates being anti Europe in one shape or another. If, and it's a big if, they pull out of either the euro or the EU as a whole it will put a completely different complexion on the brexit issue. Vive la France! Vive les Francais! 🇫🇷

Five or so years ago nobody would have sympathised with Le Pen or her father's views as even if you had no understanding of French politics you would recognise 'National Front' and want to take a step back... roll forwards to today and it's a different picture. We may be in for a surprise but the general notion is that there will be a pact of some sort between the other parties to keep Le Pen away from winning outright. Interesting weekend for Europe though. I have a sneaking hope that applecarts will be upset and that drunken sod in Brussels, Juncker, will have someone other than Farage and Britain to cry himself to sleep over
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Biker1
post Aug 9 2017, 05:06 AM
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Haven't talked Brexit on here for a while!
Here's a view that cracked me up!! laugh.gif laugh.gif
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On the edge
post Aug 9 2017, 06:00 AM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Aug 9 2017, 06:06 AM) *
Haven't talker Brexit on here for a while!
Here's a view that cracked me up!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

laugh.gif


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SirWilliam
post Aug 9 2017, 10:21 AM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Aug 9 2017, 06:06 AM) *
Haven't talker Brexit on here for a while!
Here's a view that cracked me up!! laugh.gif laugh.gif


Not to sure on the year this was aired but I wonder how much of this satire was subliminally planted in the nations subconscious and was brought to the fore on that fateful day ?

On a personal note I didn't realise just how funny this programme was until I watched the link.....so thank you . biggrin.gif


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On the edge
post Aug 10 2017, 06:01 AM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Aug 9 2017, 11:21 AM) *
Not to sure on the year this was aired but I wonder how much of this satire was subliminally planted in the nations subconscious and was brought to the fore on that fateful day ?

On a personal note I didn't realise just how funny this programme was until I watched the link.....so thank you . biggrin.gif


As it had been for the previous forty years of our membership; where politicians blamed unpopular rules on 'Europe making us'. The satire was simply reflecting a truth about our two faced leadership.


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Rdg
post Aug 15 2017, 10:54 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 10 2017, 07:01 AM) *
As it had been for the previous forty years of our membership; where politicians blamed unpopular rules on 'Europe making us'. The satire was simply reflecting a truth about our two faced leadership.


Whilst taking credit themselves for anything positive (like the working time directive that Labour keep claiming as their triumph despite being a direct implementation of an EU directive the Tories spent about 3 years trying to dodge around)

Is it any wonder that people who couldn't be bothered to research only saw the negatives and not the positives
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On the edge
post Aug 15 2017, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (Rdg @ Aug 15 2017, 11:54 AM) *
Whilst taking credit themselves for anything positive (like the working time directive that Labour keep claiming as their triumph despite being a direct implementation of an EU directive the Tories spent about 3 years trying to dodge around)

Is it any wonder that people who couldn't be bothered to research only saw the negatives and not the positives


Reasonable observation, but given that Politicians see themselves as our leaders, why should the 'lumpen proletariat' do any research other than listen to what their leaders tell them. So arguably, the politicians got exactly as they deserved.

When the referendum campaign started, I was on the 'leave' side of ambivalent. Though I actually voted 'for' in the 1970s one. However, 40 years experience, some at close quarters and then a fair amount of research prior to and during the campaign convinced me that 'leave' was the best and most appropriate option. The only concern I had being our national entrepreneurial and management capacity to survive on our own. Sadly, I believe that subsequent events are demonstrating that this is indeed a concern, and a major one at that.

Frankly, right now, in or out our national outlook is bleak indeed.


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SirWilliam
post Aug 16 2017, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 15 2017, 07:44 PM) *
Reasonable observation, but given that Politicians see themselves as our leaders, why should the 'lumpen proletariat' do any research other than listen to what their leaders tell them. So arguably, the politicians got exactly as they deserved.

When the referendum campaign started, I was on the 'leave' side of ambivalent. Though I actually voted 'for' in the 1970s one. However, 40 years experience, some at close quarters and then a fair amount of research prior to and during the campaign convinced me that 'leave' was the best and most appropriate option. The only concern I had being our national entrepreneurial and management capacity to survive on our own. Sadly, I believe that subsequent events are demonstrating that this is indeed a concern, and a major one at that.

Frankly, right now, in or out our national outlook is bleak indeed.


I agree totally. The alarming aspect is that the leave campaign , having gained the mandate , are totally clueless as to the next step . One would have thought that at least one of them had sat down with a piece of paper, slightly larger than the proverbial fag packet, and formulated the way forward irrespective of what Brussels dictates . Indeed the fact that we haven't allows the EU to have the upper hand .

In the immortal words of Private Frazer........." We are all doomed".


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