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> Europe - In or Out, Straw Poll for Forumisters
On the edge
post Feb 23 2017, 08:10 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Feb 23 2017, 12:34 AM) *
My understanding is that consensus doesn't make something fact. That is to say, AGW is not a science fact (or theory as they might call it), but I find it hard to believe Man is not affecting the climate. A gift from Britain to remember us by! LOL

I understand bees wouldn't fly if they flew like we thought they did, but they don't.

Modern science is only a few hundred years old, so I would imagine there's some way to go yet, but I do wonder if in 2 thousand years time we will look back and giggle at what we thought. Unless we are getting thicker of course!


Well, that last comment would certainly go some way to prove the 'wave theory'. In population segment terms indeed that may well be the case.


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Simon Kirby
post Feb 23 2017, 11:36 AM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Feb 22 2017, 11:41 PM) *
And what about the discrepancies between the predictions of the particle cold dark matter paradigm and the actual observations of galaxies? Lots of theory but little that is acceptable! Besides, many of the theoretical effects could also be resolved using modified Newtonian dynamics, no need for cdm.

Newton doesn't provide any kind of theoretical basis for cosmology. This really is where science is different from other discourse - any kind of meaningful discussion on cosmology needs to be mathematical and the maths of GR is quite beyond my capability, so whereas I can hold forth on economics and politics and the winner of the argument is decided on the effectiveness of their rhetoric science is entirely different and the argument is won by the theory that best explains the evidence, until a better explanation comes along.


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Turin Machine
post Feb 23 2017, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 23 2017, 11:36 AM) *
Newton doesn't provide any kind of theoretical basis for cosmology. This really is where science is different from other discourse - any kind of meaningful discussion on cosmology needs to be mathematical and the maths of GR is quite beyond my capability, so whereas I can hold forth on economics and politics and the winner of the argument is decided on the effectiveness of their rhetoric science is entirely different and the argument is won by the theory that best explains the evidence, until a better explanation comes along.

Newton comes to the scene because he wrote the book(as it were) on gravitational law and the mechanics thereof, Milgrom however postulated his theory to explain the fact that the velocities of stars in galaxies were observed to be larger than expected based on Newtonian mechanics.

Milgrom went on to theorise a new effective gravitational force law (sometimes referred to as "Milgrom's law") that relates the true acceleration of an object to the acceleration that would be predicted for it on the basis of Newtonian mechanics. And that is where our old chum and genius Newtonian comes into the frame, it wasn't until Zwicky came along in the early 20th century and identified what became known as 'the missing mass problem that dark, non detectable matter was put forward as a possible answer to the conundrum of an under populated universe.

All of which merely proves that not only is the Universe intimately larger than we can imagine, it's also infinately stranger as well! Hence string theory, of which I know absolutely nothing! smile.gif
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Simon Kirby
post Feb 23 2017, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Feb 23 2017, 03:40 PM) *
Newton comes to the scene because he wrote the book(as it were) on gravitational law and the mechanics thereof, Milgrom however postulated his theory to explain the fact that the velocities of stars in galaxies were observed to be larger than expected based on Newtonian mechanics.

Milgrom went on to theorise a new effective gravitational force law (sometimes referred to as "Milgrom's law") that relates the true acceleration of an object to the acceleration that would be predicted for it on the basis of Newtonian mechanics. And that is where our old chum and genius Newtonian comes into the frame, it wasn't until Zwicky came along in the early 20th century and identified what became known as 'the missing mass problem that dark, non detectable matter was put forward as a possible answer to the conundrum of an under populated universe.

All of which merely proves that not only is the Universe intimately larger than we can imagine, it's also infinately stranger as well! Hence string theory, of which I know absolutely nothing! smile.gif

Yes, gravity is an open question, but that doesn't weaken the scientific evidence in support of AGW.


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Turin Machine
post Feb 23 2017, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 23 2017, 04:37 PM) *
Yes, gravity is an open question, but that doesn't weaken the scientific evidence in support of AGW.

No, no it doesn't
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Turin Machine
post Feb 23 2017, 05:03 PM
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We must always keep an open mind so much of what we today perceive as fact would have until very recently seen us burned as witches. Neither must we rush to accept every 'fact' as absolute truth. It is of course true that mankind has accelerated climate change, accepted. However the Earths climate has always seesawed between times of extreme cold and temperate climes.we are so close to the end of the last ice age that the south of England is still rising due to the rebounding of the earth's crust after the melting of the ice. One thing that is generally accepted is that when the ice came, it came surprisingly quickly,climates do that some times, one day you're feeding wild elephants in the garden and the next those Woolly Mammoths from down the road have moved in and everyone sitting round the fire is complaining about how chilly its getting.
The earth might just be getting warmer. With a bit of help
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Simon Kirby
post Feb 24 2017, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Feb 23 2017, 05:03 PM) *
We must always keep an open mind so much of what we today perceive as fact would have until very recently seen us burned as witches. Neither must we rush to accept every 'fact' as absolute truth. It is of course true that mankind has accelerated climate change, accepted. However the Earths climate has always seesawed between times of extreme cold and temperate climes.we are so close to the end of the last ice age that the south of England is still rising due to the rebounding of the earth's crust after the melting of the ice. One thing that is generally accepted is that when the ice came, it came surprisingly quickly,climates do that some times, one day you're feeding wild elephants in the garden and the next those Woolly Mammoths from down the road have moved in and everyone sitting round the fire is complaining about how chilly its getting.
The earth might just be getting warmer. With a bit of help

Yes, I agree with all of that.

A scientist's severest critic is always themself, being open about every flaw and weakness in a result and questioning every assumption - but simultaneously be prepared to believe the correctness of the result no matter how unexpected. For example the Michelson–Morley experiment is famous because the result was the opposite of what everyone was expecting - accepted wisdom was that space was filled with a "luminiferous aether" and the experiment was designed to prove its existence, but instead it showed that there was probably no such thing, and rather than trying to fudge the result Michelson and Morley published honestly what they felt to be a failure. It was heroic science.


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Turin Machine
post Apr 21 2017, 02:57 PM
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Interestingly, it might be what happens a la belle France this weekend that will shape the future viability of the EU with eight out of the eleven candidates being anti Europe in one shape or another. If, and it's a big if, they pull out of either the euro or the EU as a whole it will put a completely different complexion on the brexit issue. Vive la France! Vive les Francais! 🇫🇷
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spartacus
post Apr 21 2017, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 21 2017, 03:57 PM) *
Interestingly, it might be what happens a la belle France this weekend that will shape the future viability of the EU with eight out of the eleven candidates being anti Europe in one shape or another. If, and it's a big if, they pull out of either the euro or the EU as a whole it will put a completely different complexion on the brexit issue. Vive la France! Vive les Francais! 🇫🇷

Five or so years ago nobody would have sympathised with Le Pen or her father's views as even if you had no understanding of French politics you would recognise 'National Front' and want to take a step back... roll forwards to today and it's a different picture. We may be in for a surprise but the general notion is that there will be a pact of some sort between the other parties to keep Le Pen away from winning outright. Interesting weekend for Europe though. I have a sneaking hope that applecarts will be upset and that drunken sod in Brussels, Juncker, will have someone other than Farage and Britain to cry himself to sleep over
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