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> Europe - In or Out, Straw Poll for Forumisters
TallDarkAndHands...
post Feb 21 2016, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Feb 21 2016, 08:56 PM) *
One thing's for sure, they'll lose their EU funding.


Good. rolleyes.gif
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Feb 21 2016, 09:02 PM
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Has anyone noticed how most keyboard warriors struggle for free thought but rely on links to newspaper articles and streams.

Is this because they cannot articulate in words what they believe in? Or is it just lazy?
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On the edge
post Feb 21 2016, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Feb 21 2016, 08:47 PM) *
Do you consider George Galloway and Nigel Farage "big intellects"?

Here's the former interviewing the latter on his Russia Today TV show.


No, of course not; that's why I didn't mention them.

It's really sad that even at this early stage of the campaign, some haven't the intellectual capability to rise above personal slight and insult. That's what damages democracy.

That goes for both sides and includes all the usual mindless deliberate misunderstanding and other tricks that appear when real responses are difficult.


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user23
post Feb 21 2016, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Feb 21 2016, 09:04 PM) *
No, of course not; that's why I didn't mention them.

It's really sad that even at this early stage of the campaign, some haven't the intellectual capability to rise above personal slight and insult. That's what damages democracy.

That goes for both sides and includes all the usual mindless deliberate misunderstanding and other tricks that appear when real responses are difficult.
Indeed, I've already been called a bigot for expressing my views, for example.

I prefer this approach, debunking Gove's claims with facts.

Of course, some will say you can prove anything with evidence and statistics.
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On the edge
post Feb 21 2016, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Feb 21 2016, 08:56 PM) *
One thing's for sure, they'll lose their EU funding.


I shouldn't think that would surprise many, least of all UKIP. Whatever anyone thinks of his views, David Cameron has done exactly what he said he'd do at the election. A negotiation, a referendum and letting Ministers have their heads - that was his response to UKIP and so far it's worked.


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On the edge
post Feb 21 2016, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Feb 21 2016, 09:14 PM) *
Indeed, I've already been called a bigot for expressing my views, for example.

I prefer this approach, debunking Gove's claims with facts.

Of course, some will say you can prove anything with evidence and statistics.


Good at least you are looking. Nonetheless, the debunking article contains very few grounded facts and much information of doubtful provenance. Not entirely unexpected of course. Ironic really, I have a couple of French colleagues who firmly believe a lot of their present and very serious troubles are down to EC rules. French interpretation maybe, but then that's our problem with the rules too! As to statistics and indeed other descriptors, the politics of spin has so abused the over the years, it's surprising anyone takes them other than with a massive pinch of salt.

The key reason why I'd say 'no' today is actually down to age. I was at work when we had the first referendum. Sure, the Country's economic performance was dire, but, it was clear even then that in reality, it was actually caused by short term financing and abysmal management. Europe hasn't actually added much.

As for the regulations, even arch enthusiast Ken Clarke admitted he'd never read the regulations and that we should just sign and work it out as we go along.

Again, it's a cruel irony that it was Tory Ted Heath who took us in. The same PM who presided over the smash up of Local Government in the UK.


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Andy Capp
post Feb 21 2016, 10:11 PM
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While I would vote 'No' now, I stand to be corrected; I am not devoted to an exit. Indeed, a 'No' may not necessarily mean autonomy anyway; once we have renegotiated new deals. Negotiating means compromise so we may end up back to where we were anyway.

And I take Blackdog's point on a permanent Tory government, despite only polling ~37%. I cannot bear to think of a life of endless Monster Raving Tories and their subhuman supporters.
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x2lls
post Feb 21 2016, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 21 2016, 08:50 PM) *
Ah, yes, but, if we vote out what will UKIP have left in the toybox?


You don't carry on with a war when victory or defeat has been declared.
They have already achieved their objective, a referendum.


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Turin Machine
post Feb 21 2016, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 21 2016, 06:55 AM) *
Curious that you should (mis)quote the febrile gibberings of a delusional despot to support your desire for the UK to leave the UK.

Err? Lady Macbeth? And if I remember the words are Shakespeare's anyway Lady macbeth is merely a character in a play. I'm puzzled. Oh unless you believe Milady was a real person? That could explain your difficulty in your difficulty in telling the difference between real life and fantasy biggrin.gif Would also go part way to explaining why you believe in Jeremy laugh.gif

Out, damned spot! out, I say!--One: two: why,
then, 'tis time to do't.--**** is murky!--Fie, my
lord, fie! a soldier, and afeard? What need we
fear who knows it, when none can call our power to
account?--Yet who would have thought the old man
to have had so much blood in him."
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Turin Machine
post Feb 21 2016, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Feb 21 2016, 10:28 PM) *
You don't carry on with a war when victory or defeat has been declared.
They have already achieved their objective, a referendum.

True, but, I wonder whether that's all there is. If so why racist? Puzzled much I am!
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x2lls
post Feb 22 2016, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Feb 21 2016, 11:25 PM) *
True, but, I wonder whether that's all there is. If so why racist? Puzzled much I am!



Give it a rest, there is no racist policy. That is a spin tactic by swivel eyed liberals (you know who, them wot don't read the daily wail/hail). An urban myth with no evidence.

If the UKIP party are racist, why is Nigel consistently given media time by the BBC and other outlets. Why has he been provided with his own newspaper columns and radio appearances?
Why did he appear on TV with the couple who partake in gogglebox?

If you wonder what else there is, perhaps you should take the time to look, you'd find nothing to back up that twaddle.

Someone asked on here why some post links to backup their opinions. I provide some new reading for you.
Here are two links which state facts, not hearsay/rumor and 'I will say that cos I don't want to stand out'. That sounds familiar.

http://www.ukip.org/the_constitution
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipd....pdf?1448534213

Why is it that when a UKIP member causes 'outrage' by offering stupid opinions in isolation, it is reported as UKIP policy? Whenever that happens they get kicked out but are still associated with UKIP policy. So convenient to slur a genuine party that speaks for many of us who were cheated of representation by a corrupt voting system which allowed over four million people not to be represented.










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Andy Capp
post Feb 22 2016, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Feb 22 2016, 12:09 AM) *
Why is it that when a UKIP member causes 'outrage' by offering stupid opinions in isolation, it is reported as UKIP policy? Whenever that happens they get kicked out but are still associated with UKIP policy. So convenient to slur a genuine party that speaks for many of us who were cheated of representation by a corrupt voting system which allowed over four million people not to be represented.

The concern is that one is worried about a person having those views being in a position of power. All parties to the left of UKIP will have racists, probably soft racists, but the thought is that UKIP might have more than most.
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Turin Machine
post Feb 22 2016, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Feb 22 2016, 12:56 AM) *
The concern is that one is worried about a person having those views being in a position of power. All parties to the left of UKIP will have racists, probably soft racists, but the thought is that UKIP might have more than most.

Ohh, Ohh, and Tories dressed as Nazi's
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x2lls
post Feb 22 2016, 01:19 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Feb 22 2016, 12:56 AM) *
The concern is that one is worried about a person having those views being in a position of power. All parties to the left of UKIP will have racists, probably soft racists, but the thought is that UKIP might have more than most.

I thought racists were to the right?

Your reply does not address the points I made.

Also, have you noticed the distinct lack of HYS on the BBC website?


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Andy Capp
post Feb 22 2016, 01:20 AM
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What I'd like to know is why people would want out or in. I have little I can list, but I'm an example of why democracy fails, as I am saying 'Out' without a sound reason; an ignorant voter who just wants to feel the excitement of sticking one up the establishment.
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Andy Capp
post Feb 22 2016, 01:27 AM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Feb 22 2016, 01:19 AM) *
I thought racists were to the right?

They can be anywhere; racism is human trait. Parties to the left of UKIP, like the Monster Raving Tories, are bound to have racists amongst their fold. Labour certainly do as I believe Diane Abbot has demonstrated as such.

QUOTE (x2lls @ Feb 22 2016, 01:19 AM) *
Your reply does not address the points I made.

I never intend to, but I agree officially UKIP in policy are not obviously racist, but I believe UKIP are more likely to have racist members than center ground parties.

QUOTE (x2lls @ Feb 22 2016, 01:19 AM) *
Also, have you noticed the distinct lack of HYS on the BBC website?

No I haven't.
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On the edge
post Feb 22 2016, 07:55 AM
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UKIP simply suffers from our present deliberate misuse of emotive words. They are not racist, they are isolationist. That's not an unreasonable position; in fact, probably a good many of us feel the same way.

For me, prior to our joining the EU, we grew a much greater percentage of our food, we had an industrial and manufacturing base, we took pride in our local differences. We could see responsible career paths, with a stable livelihoods continuing for our children

Our island was already a 'single market which had embraced ever further union'. Even then, keeping our separate nation states together wasn't easy and was facing strident calls to separate. At least we had a stable single currency and a single language.

If we had troubles on our small scale; what chance Europe?




Note - when the strident voices tell you that UK isn't big enough to have sustained its own mass car and motorcycle manufacturing firms, world size computing firms, food and confectionary firms. etc.etc. simply ask how Japan has managed. (Of course, it was all the fault of the trades unions....!!)


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Simon Kirby
post Feb 22 2016, 07:57 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Feb 22 2016, 01:27 AM) *
... I agree officially UKIP in policy are not obviously racist...

The issue for me is that UKIP attracts intolerant illiberal reactionary totalitarian xenophobes, and some of them will likely be racists too, but it's not true to say that UKIP is a racist party.


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Simon Kirby
post Feb 22 2016, 07:59 AM
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I'd also say that a strong case can be made to leave the EU, but that UKIP has done a really bad job of articulating that argument and has thoroughly poisoned the debate with their brand of ultra-conservative weirdness which has conflated the politically neutral question of EU membership with a whole raft of inflammatory right-wing baggage.


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James_Trinder
post Feb 22 2016, 02:01 PM
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Got to be in. We do too much trade with the rest of Europe and anybody who is currently suggesting with certainty that leaving the EU will have absolutely no effect on this has their head in the clouds.
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