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> Cologne , Stuttgart , Hamburg, Sweden...?
On the edge
post Jan 9 2016, 07:55 AM
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I can't really see why anyone is surprised about this. It just seems to be a natural reaction, particularly where groups of people see their parochial world being changed and changed quickly. It's exactly the same reaction we often see round here; Newbury for Newbury people. So then, we have this great existence, which we advertise at every opportunity and tell people elsewhere they can share in this munificence if they go with our multicultural free market ways. Imagine being a fit young Fred in a far, far less pleasant part of the World, what would you do? After all, the migrants whether they come five or five thousand miles are just doing what Conservative Britain wants; getting on their bikes and looking for work!

What else did any one expect?


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Simon Kirby
post Jan 9 2016, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Jan 9 2016, 12:34 AM) *
Does Mr Kirby have a view?

Yes, I'd prefer that you called me Simon.

As for the events in Cologne, it's a difficult situation. Those responsible for the lawlessness would appear to have been of North African or Arab ethnicity, and there is reportedly some evidence that refugees from war-torn Syria and other recent arrivals from the region were involved. That's obviously got some people into a bit of a tizzy as for them it reinforces their world view that foreigners are dangerous and shouldn't be allowed into their country, and the heat they bring to the discussion is unhelpful because it makes it very difficult to discuss the racial dimension which is certainly there are needs understanding.


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x2lls
post Jan 9 2016, 05:21 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jan 9 2016, 11:19 AM) *
Yes, I'd prefer that you called me Simon.

As for the events in Cologne, it's a difficult situation. Those responsible for the lawlessness would appear to have been of North African or Arab ethnicity, and there is reportedly some evidence that refugees from war-torn Syria and other recent arrivals from the region were involved. That's obviously got some people into a bit of a tizzy as for them it reinforces their world view that foreigners are dangerous and shouldn't be allowed into their country, and the heat they bring to the discussion is unhelpful because it makes it very difficult to discuss the racial dimension which is certainly there are needs understanding.


Simon, (nudge accepted, apologies)


Cologne, I think you missed a few. Stuttgart, Hamburg, Helsinki, Kalmar, Vienna and almost certainly a few other places too. This is a Europe wide issue and in my view the blinkered liberals have a lot to answer for.
I do like those BBC words, 'would appear', 'some evidence', 'a bit of a tizzy','unhelpful', 'alleged' The liberal leftie view is amazing. Do you think those poor women who were humiliated and injured by scum would agree with you? I think not. I wonder what your response would be if it were to be YOUR daughter, wife or sister subjected to such barbarism? Merkel's chickens are coming home to roost and it will only get worse. Her policy of open doors to so many in such a short time will only have negative impact. She has even been reported today as saying deportations should be made easier for those convicted of criminal activity. Why the **** didn't they have just a little forethought and consider the consequences of such a huge influx? As for the authorities telling their nationals that they have to change THEIR way of life to avoid such activity is quite simply astounding. The mayor of Cologne should resign and hold her head in shame. It won't be long before those ******** get German passports and then a free entry to our own shores. The sooner we get out of this failed European social experiment, the better.


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Simon Kirby
post Jan 9 2016, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Jan 9 2016, 05:21 PM) *
Cologne, I think you missed a few. Stuttgart, Hamburg, Helsinki, Kalmar, Vienna and almost certainly a few other places too. This is a Europe wide issue and in my view the blinkered liberals have a lot to answer for.
I do like those BBC words, 'would appear', 'some evidence', 'a bit of a tizzy','unhelpful', 'alleged' The liberal leftie view is amazing. Do you think those poor women who were humiliated and injured by scum would agree with you? I think not. I wonder what your response would be if it were to be YOUR daughter, wife or sister subjected to such barbarism? Merkel's chickens are coming home to roost and it will only get worse. Her policy of open doors to so many in such a short time will only have negative impact. She has even been reported today as saying deportations should be made easier for those convicted of criminal activity. Why the **** didn't they have just a little forethought and consider the consequences of such a huge influx? As for the authorities telling their nationals that they have to change THEIR way of life to avoid such activity is quite simply astounding. The mayor of Cologne should resign and hold her head in shame. It won't be long before those ******** get German passports and then a free entry to our own shores. The sooner we get out of this failed European social experiment, the better.

Liberal leftie? Sure, I'm comfortable with that. I think though that it is important to understand what happened first.


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newres
post Jan 9 2016, 05:57 PM
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I's say no worse than young male Brits on holiday in Spain, Greece, Ibiza etc.
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je suis Charlie
post Jan 9 2016, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jan 9 2016, 05:51 PM) *
Liberal leftie? Sure, I'm comfortable with that. I think though that it is important to understand what happened first.

What happened was groups of men, of north African and or Arab origins sexually assaulted and in one case gang raped women. The police and media, for fear of being called 'racist' covered up the fact that many of them were, in fact, asylum seekers. The chief of police has now been sacked for his part in this cover up and yet more fuel has been thrown on the anti immigrant fire. Merkel is being pressured for change, and groups from the far right are recruiting like crazy. Nobody is going to come out the winner and yet the liberal elements are still attempting to keep their heads firmly buried in the sand.


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x2lls
post Jan 9 2016, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jan 9 2016, 05:57 PM) *
I's say no worse than young male Brits on holiday in Spain, Greece, Ibiza etc.



I assume you have a source for that?


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je suis Charlie
post Jan 9 2016, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Jan 9 2016, 07:18 PM) *
I assume you have a source for that?

Personal experience? tongue.gif


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Simon Kirby
post Jan 9 2016, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jan 9 2016, 06:42 PM) *
What happened was groups of men, of north African and or Arab origins sexually assaulted and in one case gang raped women. The police and media, for fear of being called 'racist' covered up the fact that many of them were, in fact, asylum seekers. The chief of police has now been sacked for his part in this cover up and yet more fuel has been thrown on the anti immigrant fire. Merkel is being pressured for change, and groups from the far right are recruiting like crazy. Nobody is going to come out the winner and yet the liberal elements are still attempting to keep their heads firmly buried in the sand.

I don't believe it's burring my head in the sand to stand back and look objectively at what happened and is happening. My experience is that reports can be distorted to serve the reporter's interests - look at how the Hillsborough tragedy and the shooting of Jean Charles De Menezes were reported.

Take for example your story that "what happened was groups of men, of north African and or Arab origins sexually assaulted and in one case gang raped women."

Gang rape is very obviously a repugnant act and if there was as you say a gang-rape in the town square at Cologne at New Years then the situation was very serious indeed.

As it happens the only report I can find to support your story is that of a rape reported in Weil am Rhein, some 500km away from Cologne. Here is the Telegraph bellowing about it with the piece illustrated by a photograph of the Cologne police.


The Telegraph concedes that the reported rape has nothing whatsoever to do with the events in Cologne, but it involved people it describes as "Syrian" and so that's good enough for the Telegraph - some Syrians are accused of rape 500km away from Cologne so obviously the pick-pockets and gropers of Cologne have to be Syrians. Mind, quite how Syrian the alleged offenders are from Weil am Rhein isn't clear as the Telegraph concedes that they are long-term residents and not asylum seekers - and why would you assume they were asylum seekers anyway?

So what we have then is a report of a rape in Weil am Rhein where girls were allegedly assaulted at a party that they'd been invited to. If the report is true then it's extremely unpleasant for those involved, but to put it in context there are some 8,000 rapes reported annually in Germany, so while we're told by the Telegraph about a report in Weil am Rhein there were likely 20 others reports on the same night, and 200 reported rapes since New Years, but I'm guessing here that they didn't involved anyone that could reasonably be described as "Syrian" and so the Telegraph didn't bother to report those.

So you see why I would prefer to take a considered view.


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je suis Charlie
post Jan 9 2016, 11:33 PM
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A few nuggets gleaned from the press and written by a female journo. "Many migrants come from countries where women have low status and little legal protection; it is only two years since Morocco repealed a law that allowed rapists of under-age girls to escape prosecution by marrying their victims. "

A much more disturbing possibility – that some migrant men violently reject the idea of gender equality – is why the mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Year’s Eve have caused such heart-searching. Other German cities, including Hamburg, reported sex attacks on a smaller scale, while a police chief in Finland made the startling claim that migrant gangs “had similar plans” to commit sex assaults in Helsinki. He said three asylum seekers had been arrested.

Cologne’s police chief stood down on Friday, after his force faced accusations of trying to conceal the fact that some of the men involved in the assaults were migrants. The slow police response is frustrating because, more than a week after the attacks, the job of identifying men who committed mass sexual assaults is increasingly difficult; I don’t think there’s much doubt that the police failed victims and made a bad situation worse by leaving the attackers’ identities in question. But I also don’t think we should query the accounts of women who say their assailants appeared to be migrants and the attacks were organised. A leaked police report described victims being forced to “run the gauntlet” between ranks of “extremely intoxicated men”.

"There are striking parallels with what happened to women during mass demonstrations in Egypt during the Arab Spring. The CBS correspondent Lara Logan thought she was going to die after being seized and stripped by a mob, it was not an isolated incident: on a single day in 2013, more than 80 women were brutally assaulted by gangs of men during further demonstrations. In countries where women have few legal protections, some men behave as if they own the streets."


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x2lls
post Jan 10 2016, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jan 9 2016, 08:07 PM) *
I don't believe it's burring my head in the sand to stand back and look objectively at what happened and is happening. My experience is that reports can be distorted to serve the reporter's interests - look at how the Hillsborough tragedy and the shooting of Jean Charles De Menezes were reported.

Take for example your story that "what happened was groups of men, of north African and or Arab origins sexually assaulted and in one case gang raped women."

Gang rape is very obviously a repugnant act and if there was as you say a gang-rape in the town square at Cologne at New Years then the situation was very serious indeed.

As it happens the only report I can find to support your story is that of a rape reported in Weil am Rhein, some 500km away from Cologne. Here is the Telegraph bellowing about it with the piece illustrated by a photograph of the Cologne police.


The Telegraph concedes that the reported rape has nothing whatsoever to do with the events in Cologne, but it involved people it describes as "Syrian" and so that's good enough for the Telegraph - some Syrians are accused of rape 500km away from Cologne so obviously the pick-pockets and gropers of Cologne have to be Syrians. Mind, quite how Syrian the alleged offenders are from Weil am Rhein isn't clear as the Telegraph concedes that they are long-term residents and not asylum seekers - and why would you assume they were asylum seekers anyway?

So what we have then is a report of a rape in Weil am Rhein where girls were allegedly assaulted at a party that they'd been invited to. If the report is true then it's extremely unpleasant for those involved, but to put it in context there are some 8,000 rapes reported annually in Germany, so while we're told by the Telegraph about a report in Weil am Rhein there were likely 20 others reports on the same night, and 200 reported rapes since New Years, but I'm guessing here that they didn't involved anyone that could reasonably be described as "Syrian" and so the Telegraph didn't bother to report those.

So you see why I would prefer to take a considered view.



Oh for crying out loud, what is there to consider? Has it all been made up?
You completely ignore all the points I made and then just cherry pick the telegraph, only mentioning Syrians. It's not about Syrians in isolation. The attackers were from other regions too, mainly from islamic $hitholes where women are treated less than dogs for the pleasure of cavemen. But that's OK, they only need a chat to explain how we do things in Europe, They just had a bad start in life. That start in life is sexual repression, gender segregation, women always the victims, FGM and countless other misogynistic activity.
How on earth can hundreds of thousands of ill or uneducated people offer any sort of 'enrichment' to a western society?


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newres
post Jan 10 2016, 04:45 AM
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None of which would be happening if we didn't bomb and invade Midde East states, yet the most vociferous complainers of Syrian "marauders" were only a few weeks ago celebrating the vote to bomb Syria. Irony?
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On the edge
post Jan 10 2016, 07:54 AM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Jan 10 2016, 01:00 AM) *
....
How on earth can hundreds of thousands of ill or uneducated people offer any sort of 'enrichment' to a western society?


Quite right. Week after week in NWN we see the results of our failed education system. Where we see exactly what happens locally. Young yob does over his girlfriend for the nth time and gets a 'discharge' because 'he's getting himself together'. Kid nips into Reading on the train without paying a couple of quid and gets massive fine. Yeah that's the European way; so long as it's behind closed doors it's OK.


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x2lls
post Jan 10 2016, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jan 10 2016, 04:45 AM) *
None of which would be happening if we didn't bomb and invade Midde East states, yet the most vociferous complainers of Syrian "marauders" were only a few weeks ago celebrating the vote to bomb Syria. Irony?



I agree in part, but then most of the genuine Syrian refugees are escaping their own government and ISIS.
Cameron has the right idea whereby those with REAL needs should be taken in directly from the area of conflict. That goes part way to ensure the scum (and terrorist) have a lesser chance of getting through.


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On the edge
post Jan 10 2016, 03:48 PM
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Good point.

How about a bit of lateral thinking. There is a need for resource in Syria to rebuild the infrastructure and to replace the decent ones extracted. What about exporting our home grown scum and terrorists; instead of just banging them up or 'community service'? It would answer our criminal justice system deficiencies for sure.


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Sherlock
post Jan 10 2016, 06:32 PM
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We need to be clear that some Muslim males see kafir/infidel women and under age girls as fair game. The Rochdale, Bradford and Oxford organised abuse rings have demonstrated that. We won't solve this problem if we don't acknowledge these realities.
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On the edge
post Jan 10 2016, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (Sherlock @ Jan 10 2016, 06:32 PM) *
We need to be clear that some Muslim males see kafir/infidel women and under age girls as fair game. The Rochdale, Bradford and Oxford organised abuse rings have demonstrated that. We won't solve this problem if we don't acknowledge these realities.


I think that's absolutely right. When, as here, there is significant evidence that an identifiable segment of the community are committing crimes well above the average then rapid corrective action is needed to staunch the problem and to stop it in the future.

However, that's not what we presently do is it?

If we did, we'd be taking drastic counter measures against disaffected make youths who abuse their partners, we'd actually see some prosecutions for FGM, we'd see some significant action to prosecute people in the financial world for 'lifting' unjustified sums of money for personal use.

It's been done before, of course. Action against football hooligans, and action against militant trades unionists, but nothing else.



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Simon Kirby
post Jan 10 2016, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE (Sherlock @ Jan 10 2016, 06:32 PM) *
We need to be clear that some Muslim males see kafir/infidel women and under age girls as fair game. The Rochdale, Bradford and Oxford organised abuse rings have demonstrated that. We won't solve this problem if we don't acknowledge these realities.

That is entirely true, but conflating the events of New Years in Cologne with an entirely unrelated alleged rape that was reported 500km away is inflammatory and divisive - like shouting fire in a theatre. There needs to be an objective critical enquiry without the picth-forks and flaming torches. It is entirely possible that immigrants bring with them culture and behaviour that is unacceptable in their new home, but what's unacceptable is always a matter for debate, and I feel that we're still a very long way from understanding what happened at New Years.


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je suis Charlie
post Jan 10 2016, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jan 10 2016, 10:47 PM) *
It is entirely possible that immigrants bring with them culture and behaviour that is unacceptable in their new home, but what's unacceptable is always a matter for debate, and I feel that we're still a very long way from understanding what happened at New Years.

I love this bloke I truly do. " It is entirely possible that immigrants bring with them culture and behaviour that is unacceptable in their new home". I would have thought sexual molestation would be unacceptable in their old home, but maybe not laugh.gif
"but what's unacceptable is always a matter for debate,". No, its not, really its not laugh.gif
"and I feel that we're still a very long way from understanding what happened at New Years.". Oh I think we do know, or, at least I believe the German people know, police chiefs don't get the Spanish Archer for no good reason. blink.gif


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x2lls
post Jan 10 2016, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jan 10 2016, 09:38 PM) *
I think that's absolutely right. When, as here, there is significant evidence that an identifiable segment of the community are committing crimes well above the average then rapid corrective action is needed to staunch the problem and to stop it in the future.

However, that's not what we presently do is it?

If we did, we'd be taking drastic counter measures against disaffected make youths who abuse their partners, we'd actually see some prosecutions for FGM, we'd see some significant action to prosecute people in the financial world for 'lifting' unjustified sums of money for personal use.

It's been done before, of course. Action against football hooligans, and action against militant trades unionists, but nothing else.



In order to 'do' anything about the abhorrent activity in many aspects of our society, society in this context being the western world, we need to be able to talk openly about what concerns us without being frightened about being accused of bigotry/racism etc. As long as that happens nothing of any consequence will be achieved. That is what I am doing here. I can see by this thread that it may be a problem for some . I see that those who usually have lots to say, have not entered the discussion. I also notice, in regard to recent posts whereby women are 'apparently' dissuaded from contributing due to male domination of the forum, only men who have contributed so far.

Edits only for correction of spelling ..


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