WBC worst abuser of anti terror laws Options

[gel]

This story appals me.
http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article...articleID=13400

Seems I can remember when local councils were there to provide local taxpayers
(& all those who don't pay!) with services such as schools/local roads/refuse services etc etc

They seem to think of themselves now increasingly as an arm of law enforcement carrying
out what many would view as entrapment to catch out local shops etc.

Keep to the basics WBC, don't misuse terror legislation, which you'll hopefully
be forced to anyway by the new government.

[Iommi]

I'm not sure it is a bad thing what they did, but it seems they are reticent about telling us how many convictions there have been. I suspect it is not many as my post on this same subject suggests.

http://forum.newburytoday.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=718

[user23]

This story appals me.
http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article...articleID=13400

Seems I can remember when local councils were there to provide local taxpayers
(& all those who don't pay!) with services such as schools/local roads/refuse services etc etc

They seem to think of themselves now increasingly as an arm of law enforcement carrying
out what many would view as entrapment to catch out local shops etc.

Keep to the basics WBC, don't misuse terror legislation, which you'll hopefully
be forced to anyway by the new government.

Do you think the council is too tough on crime?

Do you think they should go easier on shopkeepers selling cigarettes, knives and booze to children?

[On the edge]

Do you think they should go easier on shopkeepers selling cigarettes, knives and booze to children?

Yes

Please add word 'deliberately' before the word selling in your question and also define ‘child’ (children) demonstrating the clear distinguishing characteristics that identifies them.

[Guest_NWNREADER_*]

Another example of a policing role offloaded onto another agency by the government, to free the police up to do the Home Secretary's bidding. The councils are required by Whitehall to do these things, and if they don't Gov't tend to mark them down. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[user23]

Yes

Please add word 'deliberately' before the word selling in your question and also define ‘child’ (children) demonstrating the clear distinguishing characteristics that identifies them.

I've heard it all now. The council should go easier on shopkeepers selling cigarettes, knives and booze to children?

Doesn't matter if it's deliberate or not. Ignorance is no defence when selling knives, booze and cigs to kids.

The clear distinguishing characteristic that identifies them is their inability to produce valid ID showing they are over the legal age to purchase such goods.

[Iommi]

The story here is about...

a Are the Council using laws appropriately (were their stings to investigate terror, as suggested)?

b Why won't they say how many prosecutions there have been?

Council defends its record for using the powers more than almost all other local authorities in England.

"Although West Berkshire Council responded with the number of times it used Ripa powers, it did not provide the number of prosecutions resulting from such surveillance, despite a request to do so."

I wouldn't mind betting that the words, 'not' and 'many' (or maybe even 'none') would be contained in the answer!

[dannyboy]

maybe the police should go easy on entrepreneurs selling slightly more exotic uppers on street corners.

[On the edge]

I've heard it all now. The council should go easier on shopkeepers selling cigarettes, knives and booze to children?

Doesn't matter if it's deliberate or not. Ignorance is no defence when selling knives, booze and cigs to kids.

The clear distinguishing characteristic that identifies them is their inability to produce valid ID showing they are over the legal age to purchase such goods.

Its not a matter of 'Councils going easier' its a matter of doing their job properly under English law. Ignorance may not be a defence but motive and lack of clarity certainly are. Whilst Trotsky would be proud - but this is not Soviet Russia or some similar dictatorship. There is no such thing as 'valid ID' in this situation as the law does not demand such evidence should be produced. The Council should only act on information laid and not on its own assumptions This is just the sort of nonsense the government are now going to attack - thank goodness. Hopefully we'll then get back to having a public service - as opposed to a police state.

[dannyboy]

Its not a matter of 'Councils going easier' its a matter of doing their job properly under English law. Ignorance may not be a defence but motive and lack of clarity certainly are. Whilst Trotsky would be proud - but this is not Soviet Russia or some similar dictatorship. There is no such thing as 'valid ID' in this situation as the law does not demand such evidence should be produced. The Council should only act on information laid and not on its own assumptions This is just the sort of nonsense the government are now going to attack - thank goodness. Hopefully we'll then get back to having a public service - as opposed to a police state.

Do you run a corner shop?

[user23]

Its not a matter of 'Councils going easier' its a matter of doing their job properly under English law. Ignorance may not be a defence but motive and lack of clarity certainly are. Whilst Trotsky would be proud - but this is not Soviet Russia or some similar dictatorship. There is no such thing as 'valid ID' in this situation as the law does not demand such evidence should be produced. The Council should only act on information laid and not on its own assumptions This is just the sort of nonsense the government are now going to attack - thank goodness. Hopefully we'll then get back to having a public service - as opposed to a police state.

Couple of things here, of course there's a thing as valid ID, ask them for ID to prove they're over the legal age to buy whatever goods they're attempting to. That's not something that would happen solely in a dictatorship, it's common sense; please tell me you're not going to bang on about their human rights or whatever.

If one's ignorance or lack of common sense leads to kids getting hold of knives, cigs and booze then one should be punished, in my view, if one is also making money out of it that's even worse and the punishment should be a lot harsher.

You've also said, "The Council should only act on information laid and not on its own assumptions", perhaps you shouldn't act on other assumptions either. Given the report is based on an incorrect assumption do you still feel you should have acted by posting what you did?

[On the edge]

...... please tell me you're not going to bang on about their human rights or whatever.

If one's ignorance or lack of common sense ...........

Given the report is based on an incorrect assumption do you still feel you should have acted by posting what you did?

Please do not be so rude and nasty – it does no justice to your argument and means I am not inclined to respond to the points you are seeking to make.

[user23]

Please do not be so rude and nasty – it does no justice to your argument and means I am not inclined to respond to the points you are seeking to make.

I don't see how any of that was rude, "bang on" is not nasty phrase and the last question is totally valid given your actions were based on an incorrect assumption, of which you have said is a bad thing.

I think you're just using this to avoid answering the question.

Two points again, don't believe everything you read as the statistics quoted were wrong and don't cry "police state" when those who make money from selling knives, cigs and booze to kids are punished. No offence meant.

[On the edge]

I don't see how any of that was rude, "bang on" is not nasty phrase and the last question is totally valid given your actions were based on an incorrect assumption, of which you have said is a bad thing.

I think you're just using this to avoid answering the question.

Two points again, don't believe everything you read as the statistics quoted were wrong and don't cry "police state" when those who make money from selling knives, cigs and booze to kids are punished. No offence meant.

I am happy to accept the statistics were wrong. However, they were published in a paper of record; which should give some credence to them. Nevertheless, I still firmly believe that the Council are being very heavy handed enforcing these regulations - particularly where an effective education programme would be more appropriate. This, after all, is not the only example. I would more readily accept the situation if the Council were 'whiter than white' itself, however, there are several examples where their own lapses have not been dealt with as strictly. Indeed, just 18 months ago I witnessed (and reported) the sale of drink to under aged persons on Council premises - not much happened. As to being a police state - the last government made us the most monitored / watched nation in the World. They have substantially increased the 'rights of access' to private property - for a wide variety of reasons. In many cases the right to trial by jury is erroded. Central Government has taken over or dictates vast areas of policy previously left to local government. All of this is making us a police state and has substantially erroded our freedoms. As a staunch defender of English Common law I'm very pleased that the latest Govenment intends to claw some of our hard won freedoms back.

[Iommi]

Two points again, don't believe everything you read as the statistics quoted were wrong and don't cry "police state" when those who make money from selling knives, cigs and booze to kids are punished.

It would seem that whether anyone was punished or not, is not being revealed.

[user23]

I am happy to accept the statistics were wrong. However, they were published in a paper of record; which should give some credence to them. Nevertheless, I still firmly believe that the Council are being very heavy handed enforcing these regulations - particularly where an effective education programme would be more appropriate.

I don't think trying to educate the people selling knives, cigs and booze to kids would do much good.

It's my guess that they know it's wrong already but continue to do it.

[dannyboy]

the last government made us the most monitored / watched nation in the World

So what? Doing something you shouldn't be?

[Iommi]

the last government made us the most monitored / watched nation in the World So what? Doing something you shouldn't be?

Like most human beings...quite often!

[On the edge]

the last government made us the most monitored / watched nation in the World

So what? Doing something you shouldn't be?

Not at all - but I'm not an exhibitionist and an Englishman's home used to be his castle. Perhaps I'm fortunate in that I don't always think the worst of my neighbours.

[Roost]

Briefly heading back to the topic...!

I get the feeling that the clue to the misrepresentation of this story lies in the name of the legislation.

"REGULATION of Investigatory Powers Act"

NOT "Anti-terror" laws as such then but laws designed to regulate and ensure accurate recording of times when there is a requirement to have such monitoring.

Maybe before this 'RIPA' was in place, councils et al did pretty much what they liked and had no legislative requirement to record it.