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> Information Tribunal orders NTC to Publish Cracks Reports, NTC orderd to publish hydrogeological reports by 2 May
Simon Kirby
post Apr 16 2015, 04:55 PM
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The Information Tribunal has ruled that the public have a right to see the hydrogeological reports and NTC have been given until the 2nd of May to publish them.

After all the public talk about not being able to publish because of a "confidentiality agreement" the Council didn't even argue that point with the Information Tribunal and instead assert litigation privilege in the reports. However, the Tribunal agreed with the appeal and found that the reports were not legally privileged, but went further and said that even if they had been the public interests would still have been string enough to override any objection to publication.

It should never have taken this much effort to see the reports - and the Council might yet ask leave to appeal the judgment which will delay publication until after the election - but point is the Council should have been open about the reports from the off, and then there would have been much less cynicism about the sense of pursuing the claim. As it is it'll be interesting to see if the reports do indeed support a four and a half year dispute.

Attached File  cracks_judgment.pdf ( 440.57K ) Number of downloads: 39


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Simon Kirby
post Apr 24 2015, 10:03 PM
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Let me play Devil's Advocate here:

Consider this photo:


Now explain to me how dropping the water table in the underlying gravels and chalk several meters below the surface will preferentially allow the ground around the culvert to sink and yet leave the culvert itself high and dry. Chalk and gravels don't shrink appreciably when you take out the water.

Consider an alternative: It wasn't the lowering of the water table in the underlying aquifer several meters below the surface which caused the trouble, it was the desiccating of the overlying peat, a layer of partially decomposed vegetation around a meter thick just a matter of inches below the surface. Peat shrinks badly when it dries, so if the summer was unseasonably hot and dry the top meter or so of soils would dry considerably whatever the water table was doing several meters below the surface. However, if the top meter or so of peat had been dug out so that a concrete culvert could be bedded down on the firm foundation of the underlying gravels then any shrinkage in the surrounding peat would see the ground around the culvert sink, but the culvert itself, sitting on the gravel, would stay where it was.

The evidence would appear to suggest that the ground movement is due to the shrinkage of the overlying peat layer and not due to any shrinkage in the gravels and chalk, so the question isn't so much to do with how much the dewatering depressed the water table, but whether dewatering drew down the water table below the peat layer, or whether, being only a meter thick and very close to the surface, the peat layer was always going to be high and dry in an exceptionally hot dry summer.

I don't see that the report addresses this question clearly.


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blackdog
post Apr 25 2015, 07:56 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 24 2015, 11:03 PM) *
The evidence would appear to suggest that the ground movement is due to the shrinkage of the overlying peat layer and not due to any shrinkage in the gravels and chalk, so the question isn't so much to do with how much the dewatering depressed the water table, but whether dewatering drew down the water table below the peat layer, or whether, being only a meter thick and very close to the surface, the peat layer was always going to be high and dry in an exceptionally hot dry summer.

I don't see that the report addresses this question clearly.

Your explanation of the mechanism of the damage (shrinkage of the peat layer) may well be correct - but it is not the mechanism that is in dispute. The issue is what caused the dessication of the peat.

The report (as I read it) accepts there were unusually dry weather conditions - which it deems less likely to cause the problem because we have had almost as dry spells in the past without the damaging effects.

It then notes the far greater effect of the Parkway dewatering on the water table - and views this as the probable cause.

In reality it is almost certain to be a combination of the two - if it had rained more while they were pumping the peat would not have dried out so much.

The real problem NTC seem to have is that the report does not say "in our expert opinion the dewatering caused the problem" but "in our expert opinion the dewatering probably caused the problem."

Now they seem to be stuck in the attitude of we must fight on whatever the cost - egged on by expensive lawyers who are probably saying "we think you have a good case" - and definitely not "we will fight this on a no win no fee basis."

The big gap in the report as I see it is the lack of any supporting evidence of damage outside the park. Did they consult, for instance, the residents of Victora Terrace?

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Posts in this topic
- Simon Kirby   Information Tribunal orders NTC to Publish Cracks Reports   Apr 16 2015, 04:55 PM
- - Andy Capp   Update: I see that the tribunal seem to believe in...   Apr 16 2015, 07:35 PM
- - Turin Machine   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 16 2015, 08:35 PM)...   Apr 16 2015, 11:01 PM
- - On the edge   Now map this against all the public pronouncements...   Apr 17 2015, 06:03 AM
- - Andy Capp   From the evidence above, we have a 'rotten par...   Apr 17 2015, 08:18 AM
- - Berkshirelad   i've been doorstepped by a candidate for elect...   Apr 17 2015, 08:14 PM
|- - NWNREADER   QUOTE (Berkshirelad @ Apr 17 2015, 09:14 ...   Apr 17 2015, 08:23 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Berkshirelad @ Apr 17 2015, 09:14 ...   Apr 17 2015, 08:34 PM
- - On the edge   I couldn't agree more and to think I was one o...   Apr 17 2015, 09:36 PM
|- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 17 2015, 10:36 P...   Apr 17 2015, 09:46 PM
- - Cognosco   When the history of all this is reviewed the quest...   Apr 18 2015, 09:42 AM
- - gel   Transparency Perhaps the Gov't Minister tha...   Apr 18 2015, 03:56 PM
- - On the edge   Yes, it is quite an eye opener; this little Counci...   Apr 18 2015, 04:41 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 18 2015, 05:41 P...   Apr 18 2015, 05:24 PM
- - Petra   Dear all, I disagree with The Information Tribuna...   Apr 20 2015, 06:15 PM
|- - Turin Machine   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 20 2015, 07:15 PM) Dea...   Apr 20 2015, 06:30 PM
|- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 20 2015, 07:15 PM) Dea...   Apr 20 2015, 06:56 PM
||- - Petra   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 20 2015, 06:56 PM)...   Apr 21 2015, 07:36 PM
||- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 21 2015, 08:36 PM) 1. ...   Apr 21 2015, 07:50 PM
|||- - Petra   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 21 2015, 07:50 PM)...   Apr 22 2015, 06:20 PM
|||- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 22 2015, 07:20 PM) 1. ...   Apr 22 2015, 06:48 PM
|||- - Petra   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 22 2015, 06:48 PM)...   Apr 23 2015, 06:40 PM
|||- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 23 2015, 07:40 PM) Dea...   Apr 23 2015, 09:52 PM
|||- - Andy Capp   Interesting that JSH said they didn't want to ...   Apr 24 2015, 12:02 AM
|||- - MontyPython   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 23 2015, 06:40 PM) Dea...   Apr 24 2015, 02:12 PM
|||- - Cognosco   QUOTE (MontyPython @ Apr 24 2015, 03:12 P...   Apr 24 2015, 02:55 PM
||- - Exhausted   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 21 2015, 08:36 PM) . 2...   Apr 21 2015, 08:51 PM
||- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 21 2015, 08:36 PM) Usu...   Apr 21 2015, 09:03 PM
|- - On the edge   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 20 2015, 07:15 PM) Dea...   Apr 20 2015, 09:17 PM
||- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 20 2015, 10:17 P...   Apr 20 2015, 10:50 PM
||- - On the edge   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 20 2015, 11:50 PM)...   Apr 21 2015, 06:26 AM
||- - x2lls   QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 21 2015, 07:26 A...   Apr 21 2015, 03:24 PM
|- - Exhausted   QUOTE (Petra @ Apr 20 2015, 07:15 PM) All...   Apr 21 2015, 04:05 PM
|- - Cognosco   QUOTE (Exhausted @ Apr 21 2015, 05:05 PM)...   Apr 21 2015, 05:05 PM
- - Cognosco   Petra "That is why we have PMs and Councillo...   Apr 20 2015, 07:17 PM
|- - Petra   QUOTE (Cognosco @ Apr 20 2015, 07:17 PM) ...   Apr 21 2015, 07:37 PM
- - Simon Kirby   I understand from Charlie Farrow that at the Town ...   Apr 20 2015, 07:35 PM
- - Andy Capp   Here's the rub: "...it is very hard to un...   Apr 20 2015, 07:38 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 20 2015, 08:38 PM)...   Apr 20 2015, 08:14 PM
- - Andy Capp   So the only practical reason why the council would...   Apr 20 2015, 08:51 PM
- - Andy Capp   The thing is, mankind has got where he is today be...   Apr 21 2015, 11:14 AM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 21 2015, 12:14 PM)...   Apr 21 2015, 01:18 PM
- - Cognosco   That tribunal had better watch out the Council may...   Apr 21 2015, 03:18 PM
- - Andy Capp   I'm not sure if I have misunderstood the judge...   Apr 21 2015, 03:29 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 21 2015, 04:29 PM)...   Apr 21 2015, 05:59 PM
|- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 21 2015, 06:59 P...   Apr 22 2015, 01:53 AM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 22 2015, 02:53 AM)...   Apr 22 2015, 06:52 AM
- - Simon Kirby   NTC publish the hydrogeologicalreports: http://www...   Apr 22 2015, 02:04 PM
- - Strafin   Wow, great work Simon!   Apr 22 2015, 04:43 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Strafin @ Apr 22 2015, 05:43 PM) W...   Apr 22 2015, 07:36 PM
|- - Cognosco   QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 22 2015, 08:36 P...   Apr 22 2015, 07:56 PM
|- - Strafin   QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 22 2015, 08:36 P...   Apr 23 2015, 06:58 AM
|- - Turin Machine   QUOTE (Strafin @ Apr 23 2015, 07:58 AM) P...   Apr 23 2015, 09:35 AM
- - Andy Capp   I don't understand it.   Apr 22 2015, 05:56 PM
|- - Cognosco   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 22 2015, 06:56 PM)...   Apr 22 2015, 06:02 PM
- - Andy Capp   LOL - Have you read it yet Simon; what does it mea...   Apr 22 2015, 05:56 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 22 2015, 06:56 PM)...   Apr 22 2015, 08:41 PM
- - Andy Capp   On a more serious note: now what? we are left wit...   Apr 22 2015, 07:14 PM
- - Exhausted   Both the report and the addendum which have now be...   Apr 22 2015, 07:42 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Exhausted @ Apr 22 2015, 08:42 PM)...   Apr 22 2015, 08:23 PM
|- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (Exhausted @ Apr 22 2015, 08:42 PM)...   Apr 22 2015, 09:03 PM
- - Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera   Congratulations goes to Simon Kirby and Mark Knigh...   Apr 23 2015, 09:53 AM
|- - GMR   QUOTE (Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera @ Apr 23 2...   Apr 23 2015, 02:44 PM
|- - Cognosco   QUOTE (Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera @ Apr 23 2...   Apr 23 2015, 05:32 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera @ Apr 23 2...   Apr 23 2015, 08:53 PM
- - Nothing Much   I only pass by for a yearly Newt.... My vote is fo...   Apr 23 2015, 10:31 AM
- - Nothing Much   I think..SOLACE. has a lot to answer for. ce   Apr 23 2015, 10:53 AM
- - Nothing Much   And MM as well   Apr 23 2015, 12:55 PM
- - NWNREADER   Is Petra related to Pauline?   Apr 23 2015, 02:47 PM
- - On the edge   Thanks Ruwan! Just for the avoidance of doubt...   Apr 23 2015, 05:58 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 23 2015, 06:58 P...   Apr 23 2015, 08:54 PM
- - Exhausted   For those of you who have read the report, has any...   Apr 23 2015, 07:05 PM
- - J C   You've got my vote OtE! As would you Simon...   Apr 23 2015, 09:34 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (J C @ Apr 23 2015, 10:34 PM) You...   Apr 23 2015, 10:01 PM
|- - On the edge   QUOTE (J C @ Apr 23 2015, 10:34 PM) You...   Apr 24 2015, 06:20 AM
- - Andy Capp   Sadly the electorate are sheep, so I would be surp...   Apr 23 2015, 10:02 PM
- - Andy Capp   Would someone clarify if all this stuff is incumbe...   Apr 23 2015, 10:42 PM
- - Andy Capp   It saves talking on-topic. I have no idea where t...   Apr 24 2015, 04:30 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 24 2015, 05:30 PM)...   Apr 24 2015, 05:27 PM
|- - Lolly   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 24 2015, 04:30 PM)...   Apr 24 2015, 05:46 PM
||- - On the edge   QUOTE (Lolly @ Apr 24 2015, 06:46 PM) Any...   Apr 24 2015, 06:30 PM
|||- - Cognosco   QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 24 2015, 07:30 P...   Apr 24 2015, 06:42 PM
||- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (Lolly @ Apr 24 2015, 06:46 PM) Any...   Apr 24 2015, 07:21 PM
|- - On the edge   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 24 2015, 05:30 PM)...   Apr 24 2015, 06:27 PM
|- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 24 2015, 07:27 P...   Apr 24 2015, 08:01 PM
|- - On the edge   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 24 2015, 09:01 PM)...   Apr 24 2015, 09:01 PM
|- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 24 2015, 10:01 P...   Apr 24 2015, 09:14 PM
- - MontyPython   Petra's posts remind me of the "Bag Lady...   Apr 24 2015, 04:46 PM
|- - GMR   QUOTE (MontyPython @ Apr 24 2015, 05:46 P...   Apr 24 2015, 04:59 PM
|- - Andy Capp   QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 24 2015, 11:03 P...   Apr 24 2015, 10:31 PM
|- - Cognosco   QUOTE (blackdog @ Apr 25 2015, 07:56 AM) ...   Apr 25 2015, 12:48 PM
- - blackdog   Okay, I'm considering it - and wondering when ...   Apr 24 2015, 10:08 PM
|- - Simon Kirby   QUOTE (blackdog @ Apr 24 2015, 11:08 PM) ...   Apr 24 2015, 10:22 PM
- - MontyPython   OK lets take a hypothetical case. I want to de-wa...   Apr 24 2015, 11:10 PM
|- - Andy Capp   I guess insurance covers it assuming all work was ...   Apr 25 2015, 12:06 AM
|- - On the edge   QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 25 2015, 01:06 AM)...   Apr 25 2015, 05:58 AM
- - Exhausted   I believe that the barometer for the whole process...   Apr 25 2015, 02:39 PM
- - On the edge   So in view of all that it's hardly surprising ...   Apr 25 2015, 03:21 PM
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