Charter Market to Expand into Northbrook Street Options

[Simon Kirby]

The NWN says that the Charter Market is to expand into Northbrook Street.

Good.

I know I've said previously that the market should stay in the Market Square, but I didn't appreciate quite how much the shopping public had abandoned the square and I agree now that a move to Northbrook Street is necessary if the market is to have a chance. I supported Charlie Farrow in the Spring when she surveyed the market stalls and we were impressed with the enthusiasm of many of the new stalls and it was apparent to us that there are market traders out there with interesting things to sell if they could only find markets with a decent footfall. The market itself isn't interesting enough as it stands to attract shoppers in its own right and there isn't much else in the market square to attract the footfall, but Northbrook Street is still a thriving shopping street and the feedback we got was overwhelming that a move to Northbrook Street would be excellent for trade, and of course success breeds success so once the market becomes a profitable place to set up stall it'll attract a much greater variety of stall holders and the town will again have an interesting and vibrant market - and that would be a Good Thing.

However, the current plan is not to leave the market square, and I think that's a mistake. It's also apparently taken two years for the two councils to agree to this move, and that's just rubbish. The town council's management of the market has previously been unimaginative at best, and it has operated at a significant cost to the tax-payer. A very significant cost was the cleansing contract which was frankly pointless and it is deeply unimpressive that it took the council so very long to accept this. It's this background that gives me little hope that the council's management is up to the challenge, and I still wonder that the BID might be a safer pair of hands, but I'm open to the possibility that the market may yet thrive and I'll be pleased if it does.

The NWN also reports that the Council is abandoning its policy of not allowing stalls that compete with current traders. That policy has been vigorously criticised here and I'm encouraged that the council have done the right thing, and it's small signs like this that give me hope that positive change is afoot in the town hall, and that's very much to be welcomed.

[Andy Capp]

I wonder how long it would take to return the investment the council made on resurfacing the fairly recently resurfaced roads in the town; a cool £2,000,000.00! Who signed that off?

[dannyboy]

the Council is abandoning its policy of not allowing stalls that compete with current traders
must already be in place as there were two meat wagons there last time I looked. One wonders how much this policy was influenced by the wishes of the existing traders......

[Andy Capp]

the Council is abandoning its policy of not allowing stalls that compete with current traders
must already be in place as there were two meat wagons there last time I looked. One wonders how much this policy was influenced by the wishes of the existing traders......

And how the traders were able to make the policy stick! But I see a council spending £2,000,000.00 on a road surface in the town as the biggest 'crime'. The Market Square on its own cost £800,000.00 for heaven's sake! An example of how wasteful the 90s and 00s were!

[massifheed]

The market itself isn't interesting enough as it stands to attract shoppers in its own right...

Then why should it be given special treatment, especially over other retailers in town?

The market sells things that most people can either get elsewhere for a better price, or better quality, or things that people aren't interested in. If a shop opens up in any other part of the town and has the same problems then they'd go out of business. Let the public decide.

[dannyboy]

The market itself isn't interesting enough as it stands to attract shoppers in its own right...

Then why should it be given special treatment, especially over other retailers in town?

The market sells things that most people can either get elsewhere for a better price, or better quality, or things that people aren't interested in. If a shop opens up in any other part of the town and has the same problems then they'd go out of business. Let the public decide.

A few IMHOs missing from the above methinks.....

[massifheed]

A few IMHOs missing from the above methinks.....

That much can be said about any post. This is a forum, after all!

[NWNREADER]

I wonder how long it would take to return the investment the council made on resurfacing the fairly recently resurfaced roads in the town; a cool £2,000,000.00! Who signed that off?

As we are keen on accuracy, can someone confirm the number of '0's is correct (before the decimal point)?

[Andy Capp]

As we are keen on accuracy, can someone confirm the number of '0's is correct (before the decimal point)?

It is a bit difficult to find out exactly, but this article states a 'half-a-million pound re-vamp of Northbrook Street '. I believe The Market Place, Barts St and The Broadway were extra and in proportion to that cost. Even if £500,000.00 was the full cost (which I don't believe it is), I'd still say that was an extravagance on a massive scale.

Traders isolated by Northbrook Street improvements

[Andy Capp]

A few IMHOs missing from the above methinks.....

Actually, I think he is stating fact.

[dannyboy]

Actually, I think he is stating fact.

what facts would they be then?

[Andy Capp]

what facts would they be then?

[dannyboy]

roll eyes all you like....

stating that the market isn't interesting & sells naff stuff can only be an opinion.

[Andy Capp]

roll eyes all you like....

stating that the market isn't interesting & sells naff stuff can only be an opinion.

If that was a full and accurate account of what he/they said, I would agree; however...

[dannyboy]

If that was a full and accurate account of what he/they said, I would agree; however...

I didn't say that all they said was only opinion.


IMHO the market expanding must can only be a good thing. Over the last few years it has changed from a pretty mundane affair into something far more iteresting. Whether this is a direct result of the 'only one stall of any one type' policy I don't know, but something must be working.

[Andy Capp]

I didn't say that all they said was only opinion.

Well, you truncated the sentence from Simon which materially changed the meaning of what he said, and every single point that massifheed stated was fact, so where was IMHO deserved? Perhaps his use of 'better quality'; that has a element of subjectiveness to it, but being of a lower quality does not necessarily mean 'naff', as you put it.

I wonder if a reluctance to move might have something to do with the amount of money they have invested in the Market Place already? Moving the market could provide an arena for other activities on a Thursday or Saturday.

[dannyboy]

Well, you truncated the sentence from Simon which materially changed the meaning of what he said, and every single point that massifheed stated was fact, so where was IMHO deserved? Perhaps his use of 'better quality'; that has a element of subjectiveness to it, but being of a lower quality does not necessarily mean 'naff', as you put it.

I wonder if a reluctance to move might have something to do with the amount of money they have invested in the Market Place already? Moving the market could provide an arena for other activities on a Thursday or Saturday.

truncated or not the statement was that the market wasn't interesting enough on its own to attract customers.

Massifhead then went on to mention various negatives about the market, some of which could be objectivly proved one way or the other, but one ( the items for sale are of little interest ), again is an opinion. Naff or not.

the market place was revamped so that it could be something other than just the carpark & place to hold a bi-weekly market that it was at the time. I'd imagine the economy & the requiremrnt for plastic cutlery has had some effect on the lacklustre tack up of alfresco dining or whatever it was the 'piazza' was supposed to be a focal point for.

as for an 'area for other activities'? the place is empty most of the time as it is...without adding two more days to that.

[Andy Capp]

truncated or not the statement was that the market wasn't interesting enough on its own to attract customers.

The inference was enough to sustain it, not that there were no customers, but if his (full) statement was not true, why is there concern for the fortunes of the market and why does it cost Newbury council tax payers to have one?

Massifhead then went on to mention various negatives about the market, some of which could be objectivly proved one way or the other, but one ( the items for sale are of little interest ), again is an opinion. Naff or not.

He said 'most people' before all those things you contest, not necessarily what he thought; however, I would be surprised if Newbury Market was the best place to get most of the things it sells, would you?

the market place was revamped so that it could be something other than just the carpark & place to hold a bi-weekly market that it was at the time. I'd imagine the economy & the requiremrnt for plastic cutlery has had some effect on the lacklustre tack up of alfresco dining or whatever it was the 'piazza' was supposed to be a focal point for.

as for an 'area for other activities'? the place is empty most of the time as it is...without adding two more days to that.

Yes, it makes me wonder why 'we' paid so much to resurface it. Would it be that decision makers had not properly thought through their ideas on the best use of the area?

[Simon Kirby]

Then why should it be given special treatment, especially over other retailers in town?

The market sells things that most people can either get elsewhere for a better price, or better quality, or things that people aren't interested in. If a shop opens up in any other part of the town and has the same problems then they'd go out of business. Let the public decide.

You make a good point, and I'm not entirely convinced that a charter market is an appropriate thing to spend public money on - I've made that point fairly robustly myself before now.

I do feel that an interesting and vibrant charter market would be a good thing - if it really was interesting and vibrant. When I visit other towns one of the things I enjoy is a mooch round a good market, and I'd take more trips into town if Newbury had a market worth visiting, and I'm guessing other folk would do likewise. That's good for me directly, because I get some entertainment, but it's also good for me indirectly because the town where I live becomes more popular and that brings greater prosperity and as a resident I benefit from that too.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the council spending public money providing the market, but it's not clear to me that it needs to. The market has been subsidised for the last few years primarily because the council's management has been so appallingly lame. The council's financial management was very poor with the cleansing contract in particular being outstandingly bad value and poorly managed, and the council's retail management was also hopelessly amateurish and more suited to a church jumble sale than a 21st century retail operation. The town market retail model is obviously less successful than it was fifty years ago, but a variant of it is still quite possible. The essential problem is with the town council's management, and if the council can face their challenges then the town might yet get a vibrant market again at little cost to the tax-payer.

They've clearly made some changes, and that's a start, and it's just about possible that the council have identified where they were going wrong, but there hasn't yet been an honest admission of those failings and I think that needs to happen before we can be confident that lessons have been learnt.

[dannyboy]

He said enough to sustain it, not that ther were no customers, but if his (full) statement was not true, why is there concern for the fortunes of the market and why does it cost Newbury council tax payers to have one?


You again twist the truth to suit your argument. He said 'most people' before all those things you contest, not necessarily what he thought; however, I would be surprised if Newbury market was the best place in the Newbury area to get most of the things it sells, would you?


Yes, it makes me wonder why we paid so much to resurface it.

sticking a few useful previsos & conditionals infront of a statement is the kind of dull argumentative trick that makes forum debates so tedious.

From what I have seen of the market it attracts the same traders each week.

so unless they are all doing it as a hobby & the people they sell to are purchasing from them do so out of some kind of misguided loyalty I'd have to asume that the traders are making a living at it, & selling stull folk want at a price they are willing to pay.

it cost so much to resurface as that was the going rate for the type of surface chosen & the council could afford it.

why does Newbury pay for a market? for the same reason Newbury pays for a library & Northcroft.