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> Stabbing in Newbury, Just before 3am this morning
Richard Garvie
post Nov 12 2011, 09:56 AM
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http://www.newburysound.co.uk/stabbings-in...ury-i-11508.php

Anybody with a Knife should go to prison for a long time.
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GMR
post Nov 12 2011, 10:23 AM
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There are some people who haven't got a knife and should go to prison for a long time.
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Richard Garvie
post Nov 12 2011, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Nov 12 2011, 10:23 AM) *
There are some people who haven't got a knife and should go to prison for a long time.


I'd agree. So, anyone know if the incident was caught on cctv? Surely there was a risk assessment about moving the rank and cctv to cover this kind of thing would have been implemented?
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Simon Kirby
post Nov 12 2011, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Nov 12 2011, 09:56 AM) *
http://www.newburysound.co.uk/stabbings-in...ury-i-11508.php

Anybody with a Knife should go to prison for a long time.

What, even carpet fitters who forget their Stanley is in their back pocket when they stop off at the newsagents to buy a paper? Isn't it better to give the judiciary some scope for common sense?


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Andy Capp
post Nov 12 2011, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Nov 12 2011, 11:17 AM) *
What, even carpet fitters who forget their Stanley is in their back pocket when they stop off at the newsagents to buy a paper? Isn't it better to give the judiciary some scope for common sense?

I would imagine RG meant 'without good reason'.
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NWNREADER
post Nov 12 2011, 11:30 AM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Nov 12 2011, 10:35 AM) *
I'd agree. So, anyone know if the incident was caught on cctv? Surely there was a risk assessment about moving the rank and cctv to cover this kind of thing would have been implemented?

What has moving the taxi rank to do with the reported incident(s)?

If there is CCTV evidence I am sure the police will have access to it. No guarantee there will be evidence, unless something informed the operators where to have the cameras pointing.....
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Andy Capp
post Nov 12 2011, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Nov 12 2011, 11:30 AM) *
What has moving the taxi rank to do with the reported incident(s)?

If there is CCTV evidence I am sure the police will have access to it. No guarantee there will be evidence, unless something informed the operators where to have the cameras pointing.....

It is alleged there is no CCTV coverage of the wharf rank, although this occurred by the Hogs of course.
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NWNREADER
post Nov 12 2011, 11:36 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Nov 12 2011, 11:31 AM) *
It is alleged there is no CCTV coverage of the wharf rank, although this occurred by the Hogs of course.


Indeed.
There used to be a camera for the rank area, on a pole in the car park.... has it gone?
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Simon Kirby
post Nov 12 2011, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Nov 12 2011, 11:19 AM) *
I would imagine RG meant 'without good reason'.

Though that's not what he said. There is already a "good cause" defence to the CJA 1988 S.139 offence of having a blade in a public place, yet the courts have ruled that simply forgetting that you have the knife on you is not a valid reason and people have been convicted in these circumstances. However, the courts have a reasonable degree of discretion in sentencing so the carpet fitter with a stanley knife is likely to get off much more likely than the inner-city yoot with an 18" machete.

It has been argued that carrying a knife should carry a mandatory prison sentence and this would appear to be what RG is calling for. Can you clarify your position Richard?


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Richard Garvie
post Nov 12 2011, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Nov 12 2011, 11:38 AM) *
Though that's not what he said. There is already a "good cause" defence to the CJA 1988 S.139 offence of having a blade in a public place, yet the courts have ruled that simply forgetting that you have the knife on you is not a valid reason and people have been convicted in these circumstances. However, the courts have a reasonable degree of discretion in sentencing so the carpet fitter with a stanley knife is likely to get off much more likely than the inner-city yoot with an 18" machete.

It has been argued that carrying a knife should carry a mandatory prison sentence and this would appear to be what RG is calling for. Can you clarify your position Richard?


The thing is, anyone dressed up for a night out has no real grounds to carry a knife. I once got stopped in the street on the way home from work in Slough as they suspected I was carrying a knife, and I was. I have a supermarket box cutter as I was a night manager at the time. They asked me why I had one, I told them and I was allowed to go.

f someone is stopped in ewbury Town Centre at 10pm, with a knife in their pocket and thay have no reason for carrying it, they should be dealt with. The problem is, most of the "wannabe gangster" types carry knifes to flash around and act the big man. But all it takes is for a moment of madness, which is why there needs to be really tough action against those carrying knives and any other weapon.
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Simon Kirby
post Nov 12 2011, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Nov 12 2011, 11:59 AM) *
The thing is, anyone dressed up for a night out has no real grounds to carry a knife. I once got stopped in the street on the way home from work in Slough as they suspected I was carrying a knife, and I was. I have a supermarket box cutter as I was a night manager at the time. They asked me why I had one, I told them and I was allowed to go.

f someone is stopped in ewbury Town Centre at 10pm, with a knife in their pocket and thay have no reason for carrying it, they should be dealt with. The problem is, most of the "wannabe gangster" types carry knifes to flash around and act the big man. But all it takes is for a moment of madness, which is why there needs to be really tough action against those carrying knives and any other weapon.

Yeah, sure, but what you said was:
QUOTE
Anybody with a Knife should go to prison for a long time.

and while I'd be happy for "wannabe gangsters" to be sent down "for a long time", it would be a gross injustice to penalise so severly someone who was innocently carrying a knife without a "good cause" defence, such as the carpet fitter. So while statements such as "Anybody with a knife should go to prison for a long time" appeal the the reactionary right Daily Hail reading voters, they do nothing to promote justice.


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user23
post Nov 12 2011, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Nov 12 2011, 09:56 AM) *
http://www.newburysound.co.uk/stabbings-in...ury-i-11508.php

Anybody with a Knife should go to prison for a long time.
Even a penknife or a Swiss Army Knife?

My Dad carries one all the time, should he go to prison for a long time?
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Simon Kirby
post Nov 12 2011, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Nov 12 2011, 12:59 PM) *
Even a penknife or a Swiss Army Knife?

Parts of Wash Common are plagued by knife-wielding paramilitaries, it's so bad in places that Trading Standards are having to police exclusion zones. If they're caught I hope they go to prison for a long, long time.


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user23
post Nov 12 2011, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Nov 12 2011, 01:27 PM) *
Parts of Wash Common are plagued by knife-weilding paramilitaries, it's so bad in places that Trading Standards are having to police exclusion zones. If they're caught I hope they go to prison for a long, long time.
I think Richard's statement was somewhat of a knee-jerk over reaction.
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Andy Capp
post Nov 12 2011, 01:41 PM
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Set against a background of recent stabbing in Newbury, and a general acceptance that knife crime is a big problem, I find both of your views regards Richard Garvie's clumsily constructed comment, to be wholly silly.
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Richard Garvie
post Nov 12 2011, 03:05 PM
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Do scouts walk the streets with knives? Do carpet fitters head out on a night out with a knife in their pocket? Does your dad carry a knife when he goes out for a meal? Why anyone needs to carry a knife on their person in public is beyond me anyway, unless it's between walking from a car and a place of work or the like, why would you need one?
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NWNREADER
post Nov 12 2011, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Nov 12 2011, 03:05 PM) *
Do scouts walk the streets with knives? Do carpet fitters head out on a night out with a knife in their pocket? Does your dad carry a knife when he goes out for a meal? Why anyone needs to carry a knife on their person in public is beyond me anyway, unless it's between walking from a car and a place of work or the like, why would you need one?

Defence lawyers have earned fortunes arguing those very cases over the years....... Usually the suspect needs to demonstrate some 'extra' attitude, or be in the midst of some problem for a police officer to arrest when the person has a fair reason for the possession.
However, as soon as reason is applied to law, unreasonable people take advantage to avoid conviction....
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Ron
post Nov 12 2011, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Nov 12 2011, 03:05 PM) *
Do scouts walk the streets with knives? Do carpet fitters head out on a night out with a knife in their pocket? Does your dad carry a knife when he goes out for a meal? Why anyone needs to carry a knife on their person in public is beyond me anyway, unless it's between walking from a car and a place of work or the like, why would you need one?

When I was a scout in the dim and distant pass I used to carry a knife in a sheath on my belt. Today I went shopping straight from the garden and, as is quite often the case, I had a prunning knife in my pocket.
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Richard Garvie
post Nov 12 2011, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Nov 12 2011, 03:22 PM) *
Defence lawyers have earned fortunes arguing those very cases over the years....... Usually the suspect needs to demonstrate some 'extra' attitude, or be in the midst of some problem for a police officer to arrest when the person has a fair reason for the possession.
However, as soon as reason is applied to law, unreasonable people take advantage to avoid conviction....


I just think if there was a possession law, even if it was certain knives covered, people would not carry them. I don't believe most offenders head out with the intention to stab someone, it happens in the heat of the moment and they have the knife on them. No knife = no stabbing.

I can see the logic, but it's the same logic the americans use for guns. If the US introduced our gun laws, gun crime in the states would drop dramatically.
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Simon Kirby
post Nov 12 2011, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Nov 12 2011, 03:22 PM) *
However, as soon as reason is applied to law, unreasonable people take advantage to avoid conviction....

So an innocent man takes advantage of the system by asserting his right to a fair trial? How is it possible to take advantage of the law?


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