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> Immigration Crisis, getting what we deserve?
Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2015, 05:28 PM
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Anyone feel that the current much reported immigration issue is an example of doing something when we shouldn't (Iraq) and not doing something when we should (Syria)? Or is is this a more complex and multifaceted issue. People see what an open society we have compared to their own lot and want a taste of it too? An unintended consequence of an open boarder policy?
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Simon Kirby
post Sep 1 2015, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 1 2015, 06:28 PM) *
Anyone feel that the current much reported immigration issue is an example of doing something when we shouldn't (Iraq) and not doing something when we should (Syria)? Or is is this a more complex and multifaceted issue.

No, you were right first time. We went into Iraq on the knowingly false pretext of "weapons of mass destruction" when the sound military and humanitarian analysis was that regime change would likely destabilise the region and cause more suffering than it solved, and that a US-led regime change would further alienate the Muslim world against the West.

The suffering of the people fleeing Syria is appalling, and the callousness with which we call these refugees "immigrants", so that we don't think about their children drowning on the shores of the Adriatic but can focus instead on the benefit-scrounging avoided, will be one of those defining horrors which people will read about 100 years from now with incredulity.


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Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2015, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 1 2015, 07:32 PM) *
No, you were right first time. We went into Iraq on the knowingly false pretext of "weapons of mass destruction" when the sound military and humanitarian analysis was that regime change would likely destabilise the region and cause more suffering than it solved, and that a US-led regime change would further alienate the Muslim world against the West.

The suffering of the people fleeing Syria is appalling, and the callousness with which we call these refugees "immigrants", so that we don't think about their children drowning on the shores of the Adriatic but can focus instead on the benefit-scrounging avoided, will be one of those defining horrors which people will read about 100 years from now with incredulity.

Immigration is just my 'cover all' reference.

My feeling is that it is more about cultural and religious distrust than benefits (although I'm sure benefits is a part of it too). I think post 911 and attitudes to Islam in the west has put back cultural integration by some margin. I can't help but think that if it was a 'developed' community seeking sanctuary, that things might be a little different.

Of course, all this doesn't help in the Monster Raving Tory's quest to cut benefit bills and the impending EU referendum, etc.

Another factor might be the perception that recent immigration has been too great.
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On the edge
post Sep 1 2015, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 1 2015, 08:40 PM) *
Immigration is just my 'cover all' reference.

My feeling is that it is more about cultural and religious distrust than benefits (although I'm sure benefits is a part of it too). I think post 911 and attitudes to Islam in the west has put back cultural integration by some margin. I can't help but think that if it was a 'developed' community seeking sanctuary, that things might be a little different.

Of course, all this doesn't help in the Monster Raving Tory's quest to cut benefit bills and the impending EU referendum, etc.

Another factor might be the perception that recent immigration has been too great.


We simply don't like any 'immigrants', no matter where they are from. After all, prior to this latest situation, there was a huge disquiet about immigration from Eastern Europe. Poland isn't undeveloped or Muslim. It's often claimed that over the years the UK has traditionally welcomed immigrants, but even a cursory glimpse at history suggests this isn't exactly true. I suspect it's really down to living on an island which makes us rather insular. Let's face it, as we've often seen in this very forum, we don't even like local 'incomers'!


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Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2015, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 1 2015, 09:23 PM) *
We simply don't like any 'immigrants', no matter where they are from. After all, prior to this latest situation, there was a huge disquiet about immigration from Eastern Europe. Poland isn't undeveloped or Muslim. It's often claimed that over the years the UK has traditionally welcomed immigrants, but even a cursory glimpse at history suggests this isn't exactly true. I suspect it's really down to living on an island which makes us rather insular. Let's face it, as we've often seen in this very forum, we don't even like local 'incomers'!

The polish aren't refugees (which was my original point).

Immigrants are sometimes seen as a threat and the more immigrants differ (accent, language, culture, appearance, etc) from the local populous then the greater that concern.

I don't think we are much different to anywhere else. Many people who travel could tell you of their unpleasant experiences in other regions and countries, but they might also tell you about the good people too.

Perhaps humans are naturally bigoted - maybe hard coded - but some can deal with it easier than others.

Interesting program: http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/
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On the edge
post Sep 1 2015, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 1 2015, 09:45 PM) *
The polish aren't refugees (which was my original point).

Immigrants are sometimes seen as a threat and the more immigrants differ (accent, language, culture, appearance, etc) from the local populous then the greater that concern.

I don't think we are much different to anywhere else. Many people who travel could tell you of their unpleasant experiences in other regions and countries, but they might also tell you about the good people too.

Perhaps humans are naturally bigoted - maybe hard coded - but some can deal with it easier than others.

Interesting program: http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/


You've lost me I'm afraid. I can't see where you have mentioned 'refugee'. In any event, in reality, there is often very little difference in the effect or how we treat. I've also traveled widely and yes, many cultures are wary of new people, but I've not seen it quite in the same scale as it is reported in some of the more hysterical press. I'd also say we aren't naturally bigoted, a number of close relatives who work with young children in multi cultural situations will attest to this; young kids simply ignore or accept difference. Bigotry is a learned, or given behaviour.

People, even fit youngsters, don't leave their homes, families and familiar surroundings simply for an adventure. I'd argue that the problem we face right now is a World issue so I'm a bit surprised no one has yet thought of involving the UN. It's clear that, for whatever reason, living conditions in the home countries are intolerable. Why can't we have a World peace initiative to sort that?


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Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2015, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 1 2015, 10:15 PM) *
You've lost me I'm afraid. I can't see where you have mentioned 'refugee'.

I didn't, but I did write: "I can't help but think that if it was a 'developed' community seeking sanctuary, that things might be a little different."
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Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2015, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 1 2015, 10:15 PM) *
In any event, in reality, there is often very little difference in the effect or how we treat. I've also traveled widely and yes, many cultures are wary of new people, but I've not seen it quite in the same scale as it is reported in some of the more hysterical press. I'd also say we aren't naturally bigoted, a number of close relatives who work with young children in multi cultural situations will attest to this; young kids simply ignore or accept difference. Bigotry is a learned, or given behaviour.

I don't think we should conflate an hysterical press with what people are like in the community.

As for bigoted, science seems to say we all have it, but we learn to see through it. It is there as a behaviour to help protect us and to enable us make swift decisions; it seems. Humans are 'quite good' at seeing things that are not really there.
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Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2015, 09:29 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 1 2015, 10:15 PM) *
People, even fit youngsters, don't leave their homes, families and familiar surroundings simply for an adventure. I'd argue that the problem we face right now is a World issue so I'm a bit surprised no one has yet thought of involving the UN. It's clear that, for whatever reason, living conditions in the home countries are intolerable. Why can't we have a World peace initiative to sort that?

http://www.mercycorps.org.uk/articles/turk...ut-syria-crisis

"Is there enough assistance to reach everyone?

In December 2014, the U.N. issued its largest ever appeal for a single crisis — according to their estimates, £5 billion is necessary to meet the needs of all those affected by the crisis, both inside and outside Syria, an increase from last year's £4 billion. Yet that previous appeal was only funded less than 50 percent.

Many humanitarian organisations, including Mercy Corps, are partnering with the U.N., using both private contributions and funding from the international community to actively address the needs of Syrians caught in this terrible disaster. But so much more must be done."
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On the edge
post Sep 1 2015, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 1 2015, 10:25 PM) *
I don't think we should conflate an hysterical press with what people are like in the community.

As for bigoted, science seems to say we all have it, but we learn to see through it. It is there as a behaviour to help protect us and to enable us make swift decisions; it seems. Humans are 'quite good' at seeing things that are not really there.


Clearly not observational science!

As for the press, why, for instance, does the Daily Mail have such a huge sale? Do people really pay good money for things they don't empathise with? The hysterical reaction to 'strangers' is readily observed round here, for instance when anyone dares suggest a new housing development...!


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Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2015, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 1 2015, 10:40 PM) *
Clearly not observational science!

There is only one true science.

QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 1 2015, 10:40 PM) *
As for the press, why, for instance, does the Daily Mail have such a huge sale? Do people really pay good money for things they don't empathise with?

As I suggested, being bigoted is a human trait, but not just human, it exists in other species too. However, we are also hypocritical, and when we boil it down, we can harbour prejudice but still work together in relative peace too.

QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 1 2015, 10:40 PM) *
The hysterical reaction to 'strangers' is readily observed round here, for instance when anyone dares suggest a new housing development...!

The hysteria behind that I'm sure is not solely down to a fear of strangers, it is more than that. I think it is more about being in control, or not losing control.

I think for better examples of bigotry, one only has to look at the views expressed on here about subjects like: the council, council/association tenants, immigrants, benefit claimants, travellers, etc.
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spartacus
post Sep 1 2015, 10:55 PM
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We've never been a particularly welcoming nation. The signs saying 'No dogs, no blacks, no Irish' were not just folklore, they were put up by otherwise normal God-fearing, church-going nice old land-ladies who saw nothing wrong in it. Bangladeshis in the early 70s, Kenyan Asians around the same time and Ugandan Asians kicked out by Idi Amin were all as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit at the time.

More recently it's the 'Travelling community' that have been unwelcome for most people if they happened to wake up one morning and found them living in the field next door.

But there's a lot of hypocrisy about the current crisis. It's all well and good for the Guardian readers or the "disgusted of Newbury" hand wringers to moan and say that something must be done but it would be very interesting to see if they changed their tune if a property next to them opened up to accommodate these people.
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Andy Capp
post Sep 1 2015, 11:14 PM
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Being welcome and tolerating are different things. While we might read a lot of things in the local paper and read what is posted here, BUT, anecdotally, I'd say Newbury is pretty cosmopolitan from a racial point of view.

The things that have been highlighted above are behaviours that you will find all over the world. Having said that, I suspect you will more readily see those thing in places where people feel they have something to lose.
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Simon Kirby
post Sep 2 2015, 06:19 AM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Sep 1 2015, 11:55 PM) *
But there's a lot of hypocrisy about the current crisis. It's all well and good for the Guardian readers or the "disgusted of Newbury" hand wringers to moan and say that something must be done but it would be very interesting to see if they changed their tune if a property next to them opened up to accommodate these people.

These people? They're just people.


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spartacus
post Sep 2 2015, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 2 2015, 12:14 AM) *
…anecdotally, I'd say Newbury is pretty cosmopolitan from a racial point of view.

The demographic profile of Newbury is almost exclusively Caucasian. If by 'Cosmopolitan' you're referring to the fashion magazine, which seems to only feature and cater for white people, then I'd agree.

Other than Friday prayers when the mosque on Pound Street generates relatively small numbers of men in the town wearing their taqiyah skullcaps, dishdash and flip flops, or when the Vodafone bus picks up on London Road then Asian faces are seldom seen and we have a very small black community.


We're a million miles from being similar to the likes of Reading.
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spartacus
post Sep 2 2015, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 2 2015, 07:19 AM) *
These people? They're just people.

Do read my sentence again and advise me what word I should have used instead. Grammar and Spelling police already patrol these forums and now we have Syntax and Context Police.


Anyway if 'these people' arrive in numbers around Newbury I rather hope they're housed closer to you than they are to me....
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je suis Charlie
post Sep 2 2015, 08:37 AM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Sep 2 2015, 09:04 AM) *
The demographic profile of Newbury is almost exclusively Caucasian. If by 'Cosmopolitan' you're referring to the fashion magazine, which seems to only feature and cater for white people, then I'd agree.

Other than Friday prayers when the mosque on Pound Street generates relatively small numbers of men in the town wearing their taqiyah skullcaps, dishdash and flip flops, or when the Vodafone bus picks up on London Road then Asian faces are seldom seen and we have a very small black community.


We're a million miles from being similar to the likes of Reading.

Thank God (not Allah)!


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On the edge
post Sep 2 2015, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 1 2015, 10:53 PM) *
There is only one true science.


Yes Master.



.....but the Earth still spins.


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Turin Machine
post Sep 2 2015, 08:58 AM
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Don't you mean,

"Yeth Mathter"!
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Andy Capp
post Sep 2 2015, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Sep 2 2015, 09:04 AM) *
The demographic profile of Newbury is almost exclusively Caucasian. If by 'Cosmopolitan' you're referring to the fashion magazine, which seems to only feature and cater for white people, then I'd agree.

Other than Friday prayers when the mosque on Pound Street generates relatively small numbers of men in the town wearing their taqiyah skullcaps, dishdash and flip flops, or when the Vodafone bus picks up on London Road then Asian faces are seldom seen and we have a very small black community.

Being 'Caucasian' doesn't necessarily make one locally sourced, besides, colour is only one aspect: there are plenty of foreign residents, visitors, students and workers in the district.

QUOTE (spartacus @ Sep 2 2015, 09:04 AM) *
We're a million miles from being similar to the likes of Reading.

Who said...

a: It was a competition.
b: Reading should be seen as the paragon of integration.
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